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How long till one can start to carve decently - Page 6

post #151 of 194

high-c engagement is not unique to PMTS.   Those guys do emphasize it a lot, to their credit.  There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what high-C is and why its so useful, including rather high up ski instructors believing in their heart there is no possible way that high-C engagement can slow you down or control your speed.  Often disbelief that its possible or advisable to attempt high-C engagement on steep terrain, etc.. 

post #152 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

BTS, what exactly is your reference point? I see a lot to like in his skiing. For example, if I assess him against the advanced skier competencies in the CSIA model: 

 

Strength and flow: Strong, centered and mobile stance. Fits the definition of "you could drop a piano on him."

Arc to arc: absolutely - no dead zones, and he's balanced such that he can easily release into the next arc without a giant up or sideways movement

Loading and deflection: definitely can see him loading the skis in several segments

Steering versatility: arguably not demonstrated, but given how much he's able to turn with the lower joints, I'd say he probably could if he were teaching a different lesson type. 

 

So who are you comparing him to? Can you post a video of much better models for carving? 

 

Zenny hit on one thing already, totally exaggerated counter and angulation, which he pretty much has to counter that much in order to drop his hip that far down.  But in that sunk down position its literally impossible for him to release without standing up tall again to get out of it.  His hip is trapped behind his legs once he dumps it down there.   I don't agree with you Meta that he can easily release from there.  He has to lift himself up out of it.  

 

He does not build his edge angles progressively, he just dumps the hip down as low as he can go and rides it out.  There is no shaping.  There is no development really.  It is a complete one trick poney with a fixed arc size.   Its useful only on green terrain to show off and utterly useless for the rest of the mountain.  He would fall apart on steeper terrain.

 

Yes he is proficient.  He has good timing and balance and coordination and so on and so forth, but its poor technique for skiing the rest of the mountain.  Its awful for anything related to racing.  Its just good for nothing really other than parking and riding on that same size arc, impressing some people with the big edge angles, if that's what you enjoy doing, then great.  

 

Also meta, I don't see him turning his lower joints as you seem to see.  He is plopping immediately into a strong countered stance and holding it like a statue.  There is no progressive upper/lower seperation.

post #153 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Zenny hit on one thing already, totally exaggerated counter and angulation, which he pretty much has to counter that much in order to drop his hip that far down.  But in that sunk down position its literally impossible for him to release without standing up tall again to get out of it.  His hip is trapped behind his legs once he dumps it down there.   I don't agree with you Meta that he can easily release from there.  He has to lift himself up out of it.  

 

He does not build his edge angles progressively, he just dumps the hip down as low as he can go and rides it out.  There is no shaping.  There is no development really.  It is a complete one trick poney with a fixed arc size.   Its useful only on green terrain to show off and utterly useless for the rest of the mountain.  He would fall apart on steeper terrain.

 

Yes he is proficient.  He has good timing and balance and coordination and so on and so forth, but its poor technique for skiing the rest of the mountain.  Its awful for anything related to racing.  Its just good for nothing really other than parking and riding on that same size arc, impressing some people with the big edge angles, if that's what you enjoy doing, then great.  

 

Also meta, I don't see him turning his lower joints as you seem to see.  He is plopping immediately into a strong countered stance and holding it like a statue.  There is no progressive upper/lower seperation.

I totally agree, but saw the part in red a little different. 

One of the first things I noticed when I watched the video was how small his edge angles are compared to all of his other angles.  Almost as if his boot has no lateral stability or something.  Maybe it's just me. 

post #154 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Well this is the big dilemma as I see it.  And part of the problem is illustrated in the above two opposing points of view which are very black and white and dogmatic, although passionate.   That passion and dogma is preventing us as an industry from finding common ground and truly developing a skier development model that works start to finish.

 

I think there ARE commonalities and overlap and we need to do a better job as an industry in finding those areas of commonality that will help skiers make the transition from lower levels to higher levels.  I have found commonalities between wedge turns and parallel turns, for example.  They are not entirely mutually exclusive.  Focus on the common stuff.  Some folks have decided that the only way to deal with the wedge turn differences is to ban wedge turns altogether and do DTP.  Ok.  Maybe.  But I say there is commonality and the wedge is not so terrible if taught properly with a plan to advance to parallel the right way, finding the commonalities as stepping stones.

 

The problem with the above quoted dogma is that one side says the only way to the higher level is to skip the lower level.  The other side says, the lower level stuff can take a skier all the way to the top.  You're both wrong, with all due respect.  

 

The OP asked about carving.  He's in the intermediate zone now and he watches guys carving around and he wants to know how to ski like that.  He's going to have a hard time getting much effective instruction from the industry on how to carve like that.  That is the simple truth and that is what I'm talking about.  That being said, the video he posted is not either what I consider good carving, so the OP should be advised that carving is getting into expert level skiing and its easy to learn how to do it wrong and end up a park and ride catastrophe.  

 

As HDN said, at some point you will have to relearn some things and switch to more of a focus on tipping.  When you're ready. But I say don't rush into it.  As Teton said, there are many useful skills you are developing now too, those will not become entirely defunct.   Its a journey.   When you think you're ready for it, try some race camps.

 

All I can say is that I'm glad you are not my instructor.  Maybe you can PM me some footnotes to LeMaster or something.  You have missed the boat!

 

I gotta get me some self steering skis and learn me some of those carve-centric movements.

post #155 of 194

I have PM'd you some LeMaster pages to read already Teton, guess you ignored it?  

post #156 of 194

and yes, if you're still stuck without any carve-centric movements, then why not learn some?

post #157 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

I have PM'd you some LeMaster pages to read already Teton, guess you ignored it?  

 

No...  I looked at the pages.  I have been through Ultimate Skiing several times.  I disagree with LeMasters terms on this even though I understand his point.  Writing something down doesn't make it true.

post #158 of 194

ok and you feel I'm a bad ski instructor why?

post #159 of 194

I didn't say you were a bad instructor.  I'm glad you're not my instructor because it seems to me that you don't get it.

post #160 of 194
So can you emulate him, and do so at and above his level? What would you need to do to produce those exact results? Obviously the lateral body angles is one such area, hip and knee flex is another. Leg steering and u/l separation is a third.
But how about his attitude and aptitude specific to the task ge is demonstrating. Does he express through his action a clear intent? What about what the skis are doing? Do they follow his commands? Some have offered a park and ride quality but how much does he need to move on that easy terrain? Does he match the DIRT to the slope? Looks sort of bullish to me, but I believe that is a willful intent being expressed. Touch and a lighter feel for the snow would be expressed with a different and perhaps less park and ride like movement bias.
post #161 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

I didn't say you were a bad instructor.  I'm glad you're not my instructor because it seems to me that you don't get it.

 

If you are going to make lame insults, you better be prepared to back up why you think you need to make such offensive statements, otherwise, we can only conclude that you are just a rude guy.    I really don't understand why some people on this forum need to lower themselves to insults because they don't agree.  

post #162 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

high-c engagement is not unique to PMTS.   Those guys do emphasize it a lot, to their credit.  There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what high-C is and why its so useful, including rather high up ski instructors believing in their heart there is no possible way that high-C engagement can slow you down or control your speed.  Often disbelief that its possible or advisable to attempt high-C engagement on steep terrain, etc.. 
I know. I got schooled yesterday again to have patience at the top of the turn not drop into it abruptly by a coach/instructor dude and it it is customary feedback I/we gave kids last year. Today i was skiing some Stenmarck style, with another guy, emphasis on releasing early before the fall line and lifting the old outside ski early etc.

But the term "high-c" seemed specific to pmts? I Haven't encountered that anywhere else...?
post #163 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Zenny hit on one thing already, totally exaggerated counter and angulation, which he pretty much has to counter that much in order to drop his hip that far down.  But in that sunk down position its literally impossible for him to release without standing up tall again to get out of it.  His hip is trapped behind his legs once he dumps it down there.   I don't agree with you Meta that he can easily release from there.  He has to lift himself up out of it.  

 

I agree that his hip dump isn't good for all mountain skiing. But consider the audience for this video is euro guys who absolutely want to carve trenches in the snow. He's just giving the audience what they want. He does use some extension to release--my initial thought is he should be able to just allow his skis to release, and let his mass travel downhill to engage the new edges. I didn't think his hips trapped him... but... I don't (can't?) ski with my hip this low to the snow, so that point on biomechanics is a bit foreign to me. Can you clarify the point how low a hip can go before you're trapped in a turn? And on which plane of balance are you trapped? 

 

Quote:
 He does not build his edge angles progressively, he just dumps the hip down as low as he can go and rides it out.  There is no shaping.  There is no development really.  It is a complete one trick poney with a fixed arc size.   Its useful only on green terrain to show off and utterly useless for the rest of the mountain.  He would fall apart on steeper terrain.

 

I again agree that he wouldn't succeed if he applied these same tactics across the entire mountain. However, he's on a moderate groomer giving the audience what they want: a carving lesson. A guy who can apply the 5 skills at this level can simply adjust his tactics for all mountain skiing.  

 

Quote:
Yes he is proficient.  He has good timing and balance and coordination and so on and so forth, but its poor technique for skiing the rest of the mountain.  Its awful for anything related to racing.  Its just good for nothing really other than parking and riding on that same size arc, impressing some people with the big edge angles, if that's what you enjoy doing, then great.  

 

Yes, he would have trouble in a race if he applied the same tactic and turn shape. But I get the impression he is able to release edges and shape his turn as necessary in order to race. Like you said, he's doing this for show (I'd say to exaggerate for demonstration purposes), and his audience is looking for this demonstration of clean carving.

 

Quote:
 Also meta, I don't see him turning his lower joints as you seem to see.  He is plopping immediately into a strong countered stance and holding it like a statue.  There is no progressive upper/lower seperation.

 

OK, I think you can help me. Take a look at this montage. 

 

 

He starts his turns with his hips facing mostly across the hill and legs mostly across the hill. Then he holds back his outside hip while his lower joints turn into the turn. You can see his knees moving towards the inside of the turn. Wouldn't you call the turning of the joints, combined with edging, steering?  

 

 

Yeah, he's not displaying a ton of tactics, or particularly dynamic skiing. But I have to say that 90% of skiers aren't capable of this trick at this standard. And in a sensation-seeking sport, there's big merit in being able to create and experience these sensations. Heck, I daresay I've seen some level 4s who don't ski this well. Plenty of level 3s I've skied with don't. 


Edited by Metaphor_ - 11/30/13 at 11:03pm
post #164 of 194
post #165 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


I know. I got schooled yesterday again to have patience at the top of the turn not drop into it abruptly by a coach/instructor dude and it it is customary feedback I/we gave kids last year. Today i was skiing some Stenmarck style, with another guy, emphasis on releasing early before the fall line and lifting the old outside ski early etc.

But the term "high-c" seemed specific to pmts? I Haven't encountered that anywhere else...?

 

what is specific about it to PMTS?  high-C is just a way to refer to the top half of a ski turn, people have been doing that for years in various ways, "high-C" works for me, short and sweet.  I could care less if the PMTS guys all tend to use that word a lot, its not off limits for the rest of us to use the same word to refer to the same part of the turn.  

 

Glad to hear you are working with some guys that are aware of the usefulness of shaping the top half of the turn...ie....high-C

post #166 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

I agree that his hip dump isn't good for all mountain skiing. But consider the audience for this video is euro guys who absolutely want to carve trenches in the snow. He's just giving the audience what they want. He does use some extension to release--my initial thought is he should be able to just allow his skis to release, and let his mass travel downhill to engage the new edges. I didn't think his hips trapped him... but... I don't (can't?) ski with my hip this low to the snow, so that point on biomechanics is a bit foreign to me. Can you clarify the point how low a hip can go before you're trapped in a turn? And on which plane of balance are you trapped? 

 

 

I again agree that he wouldn't succeed if he applied these same tactics across the entire mountain. However, he's on a moderate groomer giving the audience what they want: a carving lesson. A guy who can apply the 5 skills at this level can simply adjust his tactics for all mountain skiing.  

 

 

Yes, he would have trouble in a race if he applied the same tactic and turn shape. But I get the impression he is able to release edges and shape his turn as necessary in order to race. Like you said, he's doing this for show (I'd say to exaggerate for demonstration purposes), and his audience is looking for this demonstration of clean carving.

 

 

OK, I think you can help me. Take a look at this montage. 

 

 

He starts his turns with his hips facing mostly across the hill and legs mostly across the hill. Then he holds back his outside hip while his lower joints turn into the turn. You can see his knees moving towards the inside of the turn. Wouldn't you call the turning of the joints, combined with edging, steering?  

 

 

Yeah, he's not displaying a ton of tactics, or particularly dynamic skiing. But I have to say that 90% of skiers aren't capable of this trick at this standard. And in a sensation-seeking sport, there's big merit in being able to create and experience these sensations. Heck, I daresay I've seen some level 4s who don't ski this well. Plenty of level 3s I've skied with don't. 

 

Like I said before Meta, he is displaying a lot of skill in a park and ridey kind of way, I'm not saying other wise.  To each their own.  People asked me what I thought about it and I have answered.  

post #167 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Variations on a theme:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=g-high-rec&v=7rtzwqDeSGg

 

thanks for that.  its past my bed time but I'm gonna watch this closely on monday.  cheers.

post #168 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Glad to hear you are working with some guys that are aware of the usefulness of shaping the top half of the turn...ie....high-C
A bit of unrelated but related info - first day, I was testing my new Atomic SL 158 and couldn't quite get the timing right except maybe towards the end of the day. Then yesterday i switched to my last year's Head SL 155 and felt good asap. The importance of choosing the right equipment to evolve quickly, which I dont think was addressed on this thread before? I find the Heads more forgiving than the Atomics - they're not going to fight you if you pressure them wrong.

The best skis to learn on Are one/two down from race, a short slalom ski. The Heads come highly recommended as they are forgiving but I still like my first pair, a Fischer RX8 - although too mushy to ski on now.... Got my first rock ski smile.gif

So in the Fischwr line up for example, you have the SC and then the progressor 8 as two down from race... I am not familiar with the Head lineup, I only have the RD.
post #169 of 194

The difference being able to carve and carve extremely well is speed.

 

Speed and gravity helps in assisting with carving along with hiding errors!

 

Doing these type of drills on easier slopes with slower speed will help in ensuring the proper technique because an error slows you down or brings you to a stop (very quick feed back).  Being able to do it at slow speeds will then allow you to transition to higher speeds with confidence.

 

Again practice at both ends of the range and you will end up a better skier for it.

 

As for how long it takes.....minutes to years....depends on whether or not your mind/body gets the feel.

post #170 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

The difference being able to carve and carve extremely well is speed.

 

Speed and gravity helps in assisting with carving along with hiding errors!

 

Doing these type of drills on easier slopes with slower speed will help in ensuring the proper technique because an error slows you down or brings you to a stop (very quick feed back).  Being able to do it at slow speeds will then allow you to transition to higher speeds with confidence.

 

Again practice at both ends of the range and you will end up a better skier for it.

 

As for how long it takes.....minutes to years....depends on whether or not your mind/body gets the feel.

 

You can't do it well until you can do it well slowly.  I don't just mean being able to do it well slowly on easy terrain but also on terrain were you're encouraged to go fast.

 

 

"The time it takes to achieve your goal is a measure of your discipline" - Chinese Fortune Cookie

 

I got that fortune cookie years ago.  Still have it hanging on my cork board in my office at work ;) 

post #171 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 

 

You can't do it well until you can do it well slowly.  I don't just mean being able to do it well slowly on easy terrain but also on terrain were you're encouraged to go fast.

 

 

"The time it takes to achieve your goal is a measure of your discipline" - Chinese Fortune Cookie

 

I got that fortune cookie years ago.  Still have it hanging on my cork board in my office at work ;)

 

We are in agreement. :D

post #172 of 194

Also, that's a great video. Does anybody know where to get something similar in English?

post #173 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Like I said before Meta, he is displaying a lot of skill in a park and ridey kind of way, I'm not saying other wise.  To each their own.  People asked me what I thought about it and I have answered.  

 

That's fair. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. I find that everyone's views are coloured by their unique skills, knowledge and experiences. So when we see things differently, I want to benefit from your perspective. That's why I put together the montage: so that I could show what I'm seeing, and hopefully get some more specific feedback from you on what you're seeing. I mean, where I see turning from the lower joints, maybe you see something different that you can point out in such a montage. 

 

Anyway, I don't intend to be argumentative - I just want to become a better instructor. 

post #174 of 194

Metaphor,

 

Had to read back a couple of pages, I can say this is Austrian....(the instructor has a very Austrian dialect to his speech),  What is funny, this is along the lines of what I was taught  oh so many years ago (in general idea) and still holds true today.  Won't argue the pit falls, just that the intent is to achieve balance, pressure and edge control.  Helps when you understand the language along with the dialect (btw this was my first language and love hearing how he expresses it).

 

What excellent demonstration instructors do is exaggerate the movements and in the video he has definitely taken it to the extreme (and made it look easy to boot).

 

I'll quote L&AirC  "You can't do it well until you can do it well slowly."  While this is only part of it sums it up best (for the rest read my comment and his reply).

 

I'll admit I will never ski as clean as the video, but this is what I try to do and if I get even somewhat close I know that I am skiing well.

 

Cheers,


Edited by oldschoolskier - 12/1/13 at 2:06pm
post #175 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Zenny hit on one thing already, totally exaggerated counter and angulation, which he pretty much has to counter that much in order to drop his hip that far down.  But in that sunk down position its literally impossible for him to release without standing up tall again to get out of it.  His hip is trapped behind his legs once he dumps it down there.   I don't agree with you Meta that he can easily release from there.  He has to lift himself up out of it.  

 

He does not build his edge angles progressively, he just dumps the hip down as low as he can go and rides it out.  There is no shaping.  There is no development really.  It is a complete one trick poney with a fixed arc size.   Its useful only on green terrain to show off and utterly useless for the rest of the mountain.  He would fall apart on steeper terrain.

 

Yes he is proficient.  He has good timing and balance and coordination and so on and so forth, but its poor technique for skiing the rest of the mountain.  Its awful for anything related to racing.  Its just good for nothing really other than parking and riding on that same size arc, impressing some people with the big edge angles, if that's what you enjoy doing, then great.  

 

Also meta, I don't see him turning his lower joints as you seem to see.  He is plopping immediately into a strong countered stance and holding it like a statue.  There is no progressive upper/lower seperation.

Does the head of the femur only rotate on a fixed pelvis? Or can the pelvis rotate on a fixed head of the femur(ball)? Is there a difference?

 

Cool video Mark, I find it interesting to see the different cultures and ski preferences. Skiing, like any movement, is influenced from so many internal and external dynamics. I am always amazed how narrow sighted we can get in an effort to suffice our preferences at the expense of feeling what other movement sequences may provide. 


Edited by chad - 12/1/13 at 6:13pm
post #176 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

Does the head of the femur only rotate on a fixed pelvis? Or can the pelvis rotate on a fixed head of the femur(ball)? Is there a difference?

 

Cool video Mark, I find it interesting to see the different cultures and ski preferences. Skiing, like any movement, is influenced from so many internal and external dynamics. I am always amazed how narrow sighted we can get in an effort to suffice our preferences at the expense of feeling what other movement sequences may provide. 

 

I had a new feeling the other day doing this sequence.   Honestly, it was one of the more powerful turns I've made recently on groomers.  Sometimes it's fun to tear the living crap out of corduroy.  I said early in this post that this could very well be intent, but am not 100% positive looking at some of the demos in the video.  

Cool video nonetheless.

post #177 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

That's fair. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. I find that everyone's views are coloured by their unique skills, knowledge and experiences. So when we see things differently, I want to benefit from your perspective. That's why I put together the montage: so that I could show what I'm seeing, and hopefully get some more specific feedback from you on what you're seeing. I mean, where I see turning from the lower joints, maybe you see something different that you can point out in such a montage. 

 

Anyway, I don't intend to be argumentative - I just want to become a better instructor. 

 

Meta, particularly for pure arc'd turns, I do not think the legs turn under neath the mythical stable upper body.  The upper body can only have the appearance of being "quiet" if you are making counter acting movements away from the direction the skis are turning.  If you do nothing with your upper body, it will follow your skis, not point to the outside of the turn.  If you want to develop counter, ski into counter, so to speak, you have to actively counter rotate out into counter using specific muscle activations to do so.  That is what this skier is doing, he's using so much excessive angulation and counter that it gives the appearance for a short bit that his upper body has just continued in a straight line while his skis turned underneath him.  Yes, he is also activating femur rotation movements to free his legs to turn that way, but the truth is his feet are more anchored to the ground then his upper is anchored to anything.   That is especially true in a pure arc like this.  There is no magic force that will hold his upper body facing straight while the skis are being arc'd underneath it.  Muscle activations have to be used to do it.   They are the same muscle activations you use to actively create counter in high-C.  Its just a matter of degree.

 

This guy is creating excessive amounts of counter, in order to dump his hip down as low as possible, lower then needed, to lock in his park and ridey carve.  I realize that is part of this particular style of skiing.  Not general carving, but this particular niche....whatever you want to call it...

 

This subject about what causes counter to develop was beaten to death without agreement on another thread and I really don't want to visit that again, but that is my point of view.

post #178 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Meta, particularly for pure arc'd turns, I do not think the legs turn under neath the mythical stable upper body.  The upper body can only have the appearance of being "quiet" if you are making counter acting movements away from the direction the skis are turning.  If you do nothing with your upper body, it will follow your skis, not point to the outside of the turn.  If you want to develop counter, ski into counter, so to speak, you have to actively counter rotate out into counter using specific muscle activations to do so.  That is what this skier is doing, he's using so much excessive angulation and counter that it gives the appearance for a short bit that his upper body has just continued in a straight line while his skis turned underneath him.  Yes, he is also activating femur rotation movements to free his legs to turn that way, but the truth is his feet are more anchored to the ground then his upper is anchored to anything.   That is especially true in a pure arc like this.  There is no magic force that will hold his upper body facing straight while the skis are being arc'd underneath it.  Muscle activations have to be used to do it.   They are the same muscle activations you use to actively create counter in high-C.  Its just a matter of degree.

 

This guy is creating excessive amounts of counter, in order to dump his hip down as low as possible, lower then needed, to lock in his park and ridey carve.  I realize that is part of this particular style of skiing.  Not general carving, but this particular niche....whatever you want to call it...

 

This subject about what causes counter to develop was beaten to death without agreement on another thread and I really don't want to visit that again, but that is my point of view.

Or is it actually muscle inhibition? They  both require intention. Demonstrating the joint freedom to drop the pelvis while maintaining foot pressure is detrimental?, that seems counter intuitive.

 

Look at the Japanese assessment from Mark's video, are they doing nothing with their upper bodies?

post #179 of 194

Hi Chad, it's been a while, how are you? Well I hope.

I am going to offer a shift back to the OP's original question about skill development timelines and away from all the mechanical / technique based focus. Especially the high end carving focus that we cannot seem to avoid. Not being critical as much as suggesting the subject of the mechanics and technique is petering out and all that's left are opinions and competing opinions about which high end theoretical model is best.

My feeling is a lot of skiing movements and activities resemble reflex arcs and involve the same level of subconscious attention to balancing movements we use while walking / running. I realize BTS and others have a different view in that they suggests muscle activity is a bit more consciously attended to. I suppose on some level the average learning pathway needs to involve that stage but one of the ultimate goals of skill development and subsequent ownership involves shifting our focus to tactical concerns. Racers are especially adept at this since the discipline of staying in the course forces them to develop that stronger focus on line (tactics). Recreational skiers and instructors who teach recreational skiing tend to have a strong bias towards technique because they are stuck in the learning stage and to be honest they seldom need to ski a line as rigidly defined as a racer would. What we have seen in this thread is all of that intermediate movement development stuff got covered pretty quickly and like so many other threads, the thread invariably drifted towards debating the merit of a particular system and the theoretical skill biases associated with that system.

So how do we bridge the gap between technique based concerns and tactical based concerns? Well as a teacher our role is to teach technique prior to tactics but too often the tactical aspect of skiing gets limited to avoiding stationary obstacles and not colliding with other skiers. A simple exercise where we define a corridor and the number of turns to be performed in a set distance is as far as we take the idea of tactics. Zipperline bumps being a perfect example of this. Add random trees to those bumps, add a cliff or two, vary the steepness, a dogleg (or two) to the trail and suddenly that technique focus becomes inadequate since the environment demands a stronger tactical focus.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 12/2/13 at 2:16pm
post #180 of 194

Agree with what JASP says about technique and tactics. We teach in a lot of steep terrain. Tactics are paramount for a solid skier looking to expand their 'terrain' comfort zone.

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