Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie
What "action" do you think that is? I don't think it's his "self steering" skis. I stayed out of that one, but IMO skis don't self steer. He goes up and unweights the skis, he pulls his foot back and uses that tension to rotate his body. Towards the end of the move he engages his edge and backs off it a bit. The engagement does help finish the move, but IMO what initiates it is body rotation. Backing off the edges helps to keep him from moving too far across the hill and keeps in mostly sliding down the fall line.
It is not a pivot slip in the PSIA world and should be a fail as a pivot slip demo. He was not showing a pivot slip and what he was showing is very useful. I do it all the time.
Question.... Why do so many skiers use upper/lower/full body rotatry to turn their skis?
Answer... Because it works!
What he was doing isn't strictly PSIA, but I think it's a great move that does what he wants it to do. He is very smooth and make the rotation look good.
yea man, I agree with you, as I said earlier, I am not criticizing Butler, in fact I find his move more useful than pivot slips. Just pointing out the difference.
TPJ you still don't believe in self-steering? Can I reccomend some pages from LeMaster and perhaps another read through that self-steering thread?
That being said, no I do not think Butler is ONLY using self steering, but its a significant part of the second half of his "pivot". The first half is initiated with the foot pullback move more than anything. What is the foot pullback move? I described my theory a few posts ago...he uses the edge to create lateral torque which twists his hips, legs, feet as a unit. That is not so terribly off from some of the people who have said "upper rotary" but there is a subtle and important difference between this and the classic upper rotary move.
If you see someone do a classic upper rotary move to power a turn, its usually going to look a lot bigger and grosser than that. He simply could not have snapped that quickly, and quietly without some help from all the snow wizzing under his skis to cause the action. When a skier uses a big upper rotary move, you will see SOMETHING move the opposite direction. And you'd see a LOT more rotary then what he displayed in order to get his skis to snap to the fall line as quickly as they do in this video. Typically a muscle driven rotary move requires you to at least counter rotate something else, at a mininum; or if that other something has something to push against, then perhaps you can power the upper rotary without the bottom half skating away, but you'd still see a very large and glaringly obvious seperation between upper and lower, which we don't see here.
The upper and lower are twisting as a unit. That precludes lower half rotary, if you think you see it, show me. I don't see it, I see his upper and lower half moving together as a unit. That also precludes the upper half somehow rotating ahead and dragging the bottom along like the classic upper rotary move. You really can't do either one without something to push against or at the very least counter-rotate grossly on the other half.
If he is moving as a unit, how is he doing it. Sorry but all these descriptions of him steering his femurs are just flat out wrong. So is the suggestion that he's twisting his upper body. He is twisting his whole body as a unit. But how does one actually do that?
I once had to do this thing in PT where I stood on this disc on the ground that is on ball bearings in order to spin. We had to hold our arms close to our chest and stand on there and try to make ourselves turn around. Of course you can do "the twist" where your arms go one way and your feet go the other way, but you can't sustain it. If you want to somehow turn and sustain it, its very very hard. Its doable, but you go very very slowly and it requires incredible focus on the core, it took me a few weeks of PT to get it down, and I was never able to move very fast. Without something to push against its really really hard to make your whole body turn as a unit.
That leaves only one thing left, you have to interact with the snow somehow. So let's talk about where his edges are and how he could interact with the snow. As I have said earlier I believe his foot pullback is causing the initial pivoting to happen. its still not entirely clear to me the exactly biomechanical principles going on there, might be a few different things. The second half of the turn he is clearly steering. Part of that could be ski self steering and part of it can be femurs twisting, but in a number of them he keeps his hips quite square to the skis, precluding the femurs, so the steering comes from someplace else. While moving across the snow, merely positioning his CoM slightly aft to finish the turn will cause the tails to steer from the rear, which contributes also.