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Falling Leaf ---- how, when, what for? - Page 5

post #121 of 146
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post
 

I didn't try this move with a pivot slip, because I don't think he was demonstrating a pivot slip, but when just sliding down the hill I noticed some changes in the pressure of the uphill / inside ski.

I didn't try to make a turn with this move either, but I will tomorrow. 

 

When I decided to finally pay some attention to PSIA a couple of years ago I heard a lot of things from different people (if you can imagine that).  haha  Some of which were high edge angles before the fall-line, high C and someone said to try to pull your foot back to reduce tip lead.  Boy did I.  I found that my radius would shorten just a little more right at the end sending my COM ahead.  I was overdoing it so much that I started doing it in the high C and progressing it through the turn as needed, which is actually the NIS instead of the NOS.  Sure enough I found that I could find really high edge angles in the high C, but it didn't allow enough time for counter, which was then created in the lower leg.  It felt super dynamic but joints aren't meant to handle loads like that.  The real kicker is when I was watching some video of me doing this and It looked like I was teleskiing! 

 

Fast forward to yesterday - playing with counter. 

Initially I experimented with this later in the turn not focusing on high C.  What I found is that a little more tip lead at the right time allows for more counter.  Needless to say a pullback of the inside foot too early makes it very difficult to get STRONG counter.  Once that counter was established it was very easy to shorten my radius with more angulation.  In fact, too easy.  I didn't leave two clean RR tracks, I left trenches.  It honestly felt slow and made me feel a little over flexed for the transition, but incredibly strong compared to the lower leg tipping sensations.  The first thing I thought of is, "this is how the guy in the "How Long To Carve thread" is doing it.  

 

These pics should give you a good idea of what I'm talking about (*embarrassing as it is).  In the second pic you can see the pullback begin just after the fall-line.  Even though I have been skiing over 120 days a year, made millions of turns and thousands of different types of turns, I'm positive that there are still some new sensations out there waiting for me.   

Edit:  This is a great example to make sure that when we are teaching that we are clear about what part of the turn, skills, body parts, etc. 

 

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

 

 

Try sliding the outside ski ahead to even up tips at end of turn.

See video of Felix Neureuther in Slalom:

 

http://youtu.be/Fe4sW5yfJHk

post #122 of 146
Thread Starter 

Whoah.  Did you get the inside tip behind the outside tip? 

post #123 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Whoah.  Did you get the inside tip behind the outside tip? 


Probably pretty close in that pic, and probably have before.  So contrived......

post #124 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

 

Try sliding the outside ski ahead to even up tips at end of turn.

See video of Felix Neureuther in Slalom:

 

http://youtu.be/Fe4sW5yfJHk

Good idea!  haha  1:44 is a nice example. 

post #125 of 146

Crudbuster...  Looking at your pictures makes my knees hurt.  Be careful out there!

post #126 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

Crudbuster...  Looking at your pictures makes my knees hurt.  Be careful out there!


The ONLY reason I posted those pics is to let people know how bad it is, believe me!  I think if you took a mix of me in that pic and the over countered carver guy in the other, we would have a good demo.  haha

post #127 of 146

 

......


Edited by Crud Buster - 11/30/13 at 7:51pm
post #128 of 146

I'd delete my quote of the pics for a price...

Seriously though, do your knees hurt after skiing like that?

post #129 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

I'd delete my quote of the pics for a price...

Seriously though, do your knees hurt after skiing like that?

I have a dollar!  (remember I teach skiing part time)

 

If and when I ski like that, YES.  Do not do this!   On top of the bad pics you can see it is firm snow and I'm on a Rossi E88.  Not that a 67mm under foot ski would make it correct, but probably wouldn't hurt as much. 

post #130 of 146

I need to continue this a little further, sorry. 

 

In the video Mr. Butler was side slipping when he pulled his foot back.  In my numbskull I visualize side slipping as more similar to the end of a turn or transition, but not the start of a turn really.  If that is the case, then why didn't he move the downhill ski forward?  When I first saw this I replied about how it creates pressure on the uphill ski, foot, ankle and little toe (pretty easy to see that pressure in my pics).   

 

So, I really can't understand his rational unless it is merely showing us different ways to create pressure, or is leading us down the same "how to ruin your knees" path that I took. 

 

In post 117 Liquid says"...and thought about the new outside foot pull-back as a way to keep that outside ski from sneaking forward in front of me as I completed the turns."

But then in post 119 Liquid says, "1.  pull the NOS (new outside foot) back as I start the turn (new for me)"

 

Ric says, "Sometimes peoples explanations can cloud what we see if we place too much emphasis on what is being said. It appears Butlers is claiming an opposite result from the beginners magic result.

 

So, what part of the turn do we do this again? 

 

At this point all I know is that I'm NOT going to be pulling my foot back the way I have and that I will try moving the downhill foot forward tomorrow and play with more counter as well.  Ric is right in the fact that words can kill.  Just look how us "pros" have gone on for pages about this and how similar vague advice damn near ended my skiing career. 

post #131 of 146

I was reading about "counter" (quotes to avoid definition / terminology fights). 

 

BTS said in a thread

 

skiing OUT OF, two possible ways to interpret it, JASP still hasn't given me a clear definition of when its starts and ends.

 

A - SKIING OUT OF before the edge change, not possible.  The body does all the unwinding work above the waist because the skis aren't steering back that way yet and no amount of twisting of your legs is going to make them turn that way either until they are flat. recentering can only happen before the fall line from unwinding your upper body.  Could be tensional unwinding as JASP suggested, but I do not think there is normally enough tension there to recenter the upper body mass just by effortless spring action as he suggested.  There is enough tension such that when your skis become flat they can pivot.  But there is not enough stored force to recenter your upper body mass.  You have to direct your upper body to do it, yes it can feel like natural unwinding but it still requires muscle activated rotational movements of the upper body to recenter, if that is your goal.

 

B - SKIING OUT OF after the edge change is not really skiing out of "counter"...its skiing out of rotated  and skiing into early counter in the next turn.

----------------------------------

 

So, I obviously was overdoing foot pull back and creating extra "counter" and angles with my lower legs.  Not good.  Some advice was "trying moving the outside ski forward at the end of the turn". 

 

Referring to point A - If I'm in a strong countered stance at the fall-line (phase 2)  wouldn't moving the outside foot forward through phase three un-wind the counter / tip lead that we created earlier and potentially before the skis are truly flat?   Wouldn't this be a way to reduce counter without upper body rotational forces.   No, we can't steer a tipped ski, but we can move a tipped ski along the edge access fore and aft.  Move it fore and tip lead, hips and shoulders should square.  Right?

 

Thanks.

post #132 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post

I was reading about "counter" (quotes to avoid definition / terminology fights). 

BTS said in a thread

skiing OUT OF, two possible ways to interpret it, JASP still hasn't given me a clear definition of when its starts and ends.

A - SKIING OUT OF before the edge change, not possible.  The body does all the unwinding work above the waist because the skis aren't steering back that way yet and no amount of twisting of your legs is going to make them turn that way either until they are flat. recentering can only happen before the fall line from unwinding your upper body.  Could be tensional unwinding as JASP suggested, but I do not think there is normally enough tension there to recenter the upper body mass just by effortless spring action as he suggested.  There is enough tension such that when your skis become flat they can pivot.  But there is not enough stored force to recenter your upper body mass.  You have to direct your upper body to do it, yes it can feel like natural unwinding but it still requires muscle activated rotational movements of the upper body to recenter, if that is your goal.

B - SKIING OUT OF after the edge change is not really skiing out of "counter"...its skiing out of rotated  and skiing into early counter in the next turn.

So, I obviously was overdoing foot pull back and creating extra "counter" and angles with my lower legs.  Not good.  Some advice was "trying moving the outside ski forward at the end of the turn". 

Referring to point A - If I'm in a strong countered stance at the fall-line (phase 2)  wouldn't moving the outside foot forward through phase three un-wind the counter / tip lead that we created earlier and potentially before the skis are truly flat?   Wouldn't this be a way to reduce counter without upper body rotational forces.   No, we can't steer a tipped ski, but we can move a tipped ski along the edge access fore and aft.  Move it fore and tip lead, hips and shoulders should square.  Right?

Thanks.

If your inside ski is leading ahead near end of turn then yes pull it back! Or better yet don't let it get that far ahead to begin with.

Counter has to do with the relationship of your hips to the skis, not the feet. Of course some people often do combine the two, but its better if you can keep your feet with less tip lead and the hip counter can still exist.

Getting out of counter means changing your pelvis relative to the direction the skis are pointed. Shuffling your feet alone doesn't do it.
post #133 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post
 

I need to continue this a little further, sorry. 

 

In the video Mr. Butler was side slipping when he pulled his foot back.  In my numbskull I visualize side slipping as more similar to the end of a turn or transition, but not the start of a turn really.  If that is the case, then why didn't he move the downhill ski forward?  When I first saw this I replied about how it creates pressure on the uphill ski, foot, ankle and little toe (pretty easy to see that pressure in my pics).   

 

So, I really can't understand his rational unless it is merely showing us different ways to create pressure, or is leading us down the same "how to ruin your knees" path that I took. 

 

In post 117 Liquid says"...and thought about the new outside foot pull-back as a way to keep that outside ski from sneaking forward in front of me as I completed the turns."

But then in post 119 Liquid says, "1.  pull the NOS (new outside foot) back as I start the turn (new for me)"

 

Ric says, "Sometimes peoples explanations can cloud what we see if we place too much emphasis on what is being said. It appears Butlers is claiming an opposite result from the beginners magic result.

 

So, what part of the turn do we do this again? 

 

At this point all I know is that I'm NOT going to be pulling my foot back the way I have and that I will try moving the downhill foot forward tomorrow and play with more counter as well.  Ric is right in the fact that words can kill.  Just look how us "pros" have gone on for pages about this and how similar vague advice damn near ended my skiing career. 

Butler says in his video that the purpose of the new outside foot pull-back is to keep the foot under you as the new turn progresses.  I'm not sure that's exactly how he puts it, but at least I'm close. 

 

It does work just that way.   Pulling that foot back at initiation puts the foot behind the hips right away, and it remains there as the ski comes around through the turn.  At least it did for me when I worked with it this weekend - YMMV.  

 

So this move is capable of setting up the new turn with the outside ski NOT being in front/downhill of the skier from the get-go, as it is for so many recreational skiers.  I think most here would agree that this result is good.  Not sure how it will fare in lessons, however.  In addition, releasing the NIS and pulling the NOS back at the same time results in early pressure on the NOS's BTE, nice and high in the turn, waaay before the skis point down the fall line.  I don't know why, it just happens.  With me.  I'm not making generalities to others here.  I like it!

post #134 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


If your inside ski is leading ahead near end of turn then yes pull it back! Or better yet don't let it get that far ahead to begin with.

Counter has to do with the relationship of your hips to the skis, not the feet. Of course some people often do combine the two, but its better if you can keep your feet with less tip lead and the hip counter can still exist.

Getting out of counter means changing your pelvis relative to the direction the skis are pointed. Shuffling your feet alone doesn't do it.


Thanks.  I took a few runs today before you posted.   Too much tip lead has never really been an issue for me.  Even today without pulling anything back I'm fairly confident that isn't a problem.  However, for the sake of new sensations I tried moving the foot forward towards the end of the turn.    IT was interesting and I'm still trying to verbalize my feelings. 

  When making bigger turns it "seemed" to give me some new pressure to actually help flatten the ski before transition and "seemed" to create a little more counter early in the new turn.  There were no loads on my knees from this unlike the "other" move I've displayed. 

 

I have read and been told that people with very narrow hips  need less counter than somebody with a wider pelvis.(I'm a 31 waist at best right now)    I've never really felt like I needed more counter, but having more when I need it is never a bad thing (which I can create later in the turn from skiing into counter and angulating with big muscles like Austrian carver guy):

 

The questions are about EARLY counter:

 1.  Is the above statement true about counter vs. pelvis width? 

2.  How do you know when you need more counter if the ski performance seems in tact (lack of pressure, upper body rotation, lack of ability to angulate more, etc)?

3.  What are some other ideas of creating early counter without upper body rotary, and without pulling the feet back? 

Or, is creating early counter a rotary move of the pelvis against the lower body (sort of the opposite of skiing into counter)

Thanks again.

post #135 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Butler says in his video that the purpose of the new outside foot pull-back is to keep the foot under you as the new turn progresses.  I'm not sure that's exactly how he puts it, but at least I'm close. 

 

It does work just that way.   Pulling that foot back at initiation puts the foot behind the hips right away, and it remains there as the ski comes around through the turn.  At least it did for me when I worked with it this weekend - YMMV.  

 

So this move is capable of setting up the new turn with the outside ski NOT being in front/downhill of the skier from the get-go, as it is for so many recreational skiers.  I think most here would agree that this result is good.  Not sure how it will fare in lessons, however.  In addition, releasing the NIS and pulling the NOS back at the same time results in early pressure on the NOS's BTE, nice and high in the turn, waaay before the skis point down the fall line.  I don't know why, it just happens.  With me.  I'm not making generalities to others here.  I like it!


Thanks!

There was a time when I was so focused on two-footed skiing, RR tracks, getting more out of high edge angles, etc. that I was searching for LTE pressure early in the turn.  I guess because I learned on straight skis I never had a problem finding BTE pressure.  However, tipping and weighting your inside ski didn't work well at all.  You would land on your hip.  In fact, I had an A- frame because I didn't use my inside ski then (not a big alignment issue) and if the outside blew-out then all I had to do was set the inside ski down on the BTE and stand on it.  It took me a little time to tip my inside knee on to edge because of a lack of trust.  Once I trusted the inside ski, I took it way overboard for a while. 


Edited by Crud Buster - 12/1/13 at 6:22pm
post #136 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post
 


Thanks.  I took a few runs today before you posted.   Too much tip lead has never really been an issue for me.  Even today without pulling anything back I'm fairly confident that isn't a problem.  However, for the sake of new sensations I tried moving the foot forward towards the end of the turn.    IT was interesting and I'm still trying to verbalize my feelings. 

  When making bigger turns it "seemed" to give me some new pressure to actually help flatten the ski before transition and "seemed" to create a little more counter early in the new turn.  There were no loads on my knees from this unlike the "other" move I've displayed. 

 

Yes some tip lead can make it easier to find the counter pocket, and at deep edge angles you will end up with tip lead.  But the earlier question was about whether eliminating the tip lead would cause your counter to be eliminated too.  Right?  And I say it will not, though if you eliminate your counter through other means, you may see some tip lead go away on its own.  Understand?  

 

Try to isolate your hip counter from your feet Crud, Also you don't need a ton of counter like that german hyper carver guy...that is WAY more then you need.

 

Running out the door to ski, will try to comment on your other questions later...

post #137 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Yes some tip lead can make it easier to find the counter pocket, and at deep edge angles you will end up with tip lead.  But the earlier question was about whether eliminating the tip lead would cause your counter to be eliminated too.  Right?  And I say it will not, though if you eliminate your counter through other means, you may see some tip lead go away on its own.  Understand?  

 

Try to isolate your hip counter from your feet Crud, Also you don't need a ton of counter like that german hyper carver guy...that is WAY more then you need.

 

Running out the door to ski, will try to comment on your other questions later...


Thanks, that did answer my earlier question.  I'll wait for your other reply (if you have time) on these:  (I realize I'm probably over thinking this and getting to techy)

 

The questions are about EARLY counter:

 1.  Is the above statement true about counter vs. pelvis width? (wide hips, more counter)

2.  How do you know when you need more counter if the ski performance seems in tact (is it lack of pressure, upper body rotation, lack of ability to angulate more, or lack of ability to shorten your radius when needed which seems like late counter)?

3.  What are some other ideas of creating early counter without upper body rotary, and without pulling the feet back? 

Or, is creating early counter a rotary move of the pelvis against the lower body (sort of the opposite of skiing into counter)

Thanks again.

post #138 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post

The questions are about EARLY counter:
 1.  Is the above statement true about counter vs. pelvis width? (wide hips, more counter)

I have to make an educated guess here and say no, bigger hips does not mean more or less counter, but I might be missing something. What reason was given you?
Quote:
2.  How do you know when you need more counter if the ski performance seems in tact (is it lack of pressure, upper body rotation, lack of ability to angulate more, or lack of ability to shorten your radius when needed which seems like late counter)?

There are numerous reasons for developing counter. Counter and extension can help evert the outside ankle, counter facilitates easier angulation because it lines up larger muscles for stacking yourself. In short radius turns counter helps you to keep the upper body quieter while the legs seem to turn under you. How much is too much or too little is a feel thing and just depends. Too much counter and angulation can plop you into park and ride. Too little will make it hard to stay outside ski dominant.
Quote:
3.  What are some other ideas of creating early counter without upper body rotary, and without pulling the feet back? 
Or, is creating early counter a rotary move of the pelvis against the lower body (sort of the opposite of skiing into counter)
Thanks again.
Not sure I understand this question. Activate muscles that moves your inside hip forward, it does not have to be far. This counter rotational movement is not necessarily large, but it is opposite of the direction the skis are turning.
post #139 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


I have to make an educated guess here and say no, bigger hips does not mean more or less counter, but I might be missing something. What reason was given you?  I don't recall exactly, but I think it had to do with the distance the countered hip is to the COM (a bigger rotary circumference).  As you said below, it is a small rotational move.  Does a guy with a 31 waist have a smaller move than someone with a 38?  My thought was that it is relative initially, but then I thought about the fact that some 150 lb. skinny guys can produce more forces relative to their mass than some 200 lb. stocky guys (or gals).  I still think is relative to the force, not the body shape.  Anyway, just something that crossed my path. 
There are numerous reasons for developing counter. Counter and extension can help evert the outside ankle, counter facilitates easier angulation because it lines up larger muscles for stacking yourself. In short radius turns counter helps you to keep the upper body quieter while the legs seem to turn under you. How much is too much or too little is a feel thing and just depends. Too much counter and angulation can plop you into park and ride. Too little will make it hard to stay outside ski dominant.  A very fine answer.
Not sure I understand this question. Activate muscles that moves your inside hip forward, it does not have to be far. This counter rotational movement is not necessarily large, but it is opposite of the direction the skis are turning.  That answers it pretty well.  It's a rotational movement, not something that your skis create in anyway and if the ski performance isn't there you need to do something, including more or less counter.  If you look at my pics (gasp) you can sort of see that I was creating counter at the end of the turn by pulling my foot back, pressuring my little toe, which brought my skis further through my COM.(edit: on second look, the counter is the same but the angulation is greater.  Ouch!)   I think that is the only way to counter with your feet which I DO NOT RECOMMEND!! I try to work from the feet up vs. top down when possible.  In this case, I don't think it is possible.   Cheers and thanks. 

Edited by Crud Buster - 12/2/13 at 9:24pm
post #140 of 146
Thread Starter 

Inserting a thought here.

Moving the new inside foot back while at the same time moving the new inside hip forward is not intuitive, but easy to do once you get it.

Thoughts?

post #141 of 146
I
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Inserting a thought here.
Moving the new inside foot back while at the same time moving the new inside hip forward is not intuitive, but easy to do once you get it.
Thoughts?

It's not intuitive but that is the move, though its more a matter of HOLDING the new inside foot back, hopefully it's already there.
post #142 of 146
Thread Starter 

bts, do your feet never move forward, meaning therefore they never need to be moved back?

post #143 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

bts, do your feet never move forward, meaning therefore they never need to be moved back?
Sure but consider that the outside ski of the previous turn is usually not the one that is ahead
post #144 of 146
Thread Starter 

I guess I lever it.  I try to be centered over that outside arch at and after the fall line.

You see any problems with levering the new inside ski at initiation?

post #145 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

I guess I lever it.  I try to be centered over that outside arch at and after the fall line.

You see any problems with levering the new inside ski at initiation?


Can you describe what you mean by 'lever'?

post #146 of 146
Thread Starter 

I pull it back and tip it.  I bend the cuff of the boot.  Thus pressing the LTE of the shovel into the snow. If not carving, I also turn it.  Not dramatically, just enough to have a bit of an effect on the turn, so the turn is not just dependent on the outside ski's action.  All of this at the top of the turn, before the fall line.

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