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Time for the Code of Conduct to be updated - Page 11

post #301 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post
 

 

Spend 5 mins watching the live video of skiers at the bottom of Copper and you'll see why this doesn't work:

 

http://www.coppercolorado.com/winter/the_mountain/mountain_webcams/CenterVillage/index.html

 

Skiing is nothing like driving.  Watching that video shows how chaotic skiing is compared to driving.   That looks nothing like cars driving down a highway.

 

Here are a few reason the idea of "lanes" skiing doesn't work and is dangerous:

 

1. Unlike roads there are no lanes marked on a ski hill.

2. Skiers ski all over the trail, while cars tend to stay in the same lane.

3. Skiers turn all the time, where cars generally go straight down the road.

4. Skiers use all different turn shapes and sizes, while turning cars are consistent dictated by the road.

5. Skiers are going different places on the same trail, where cars are going where the road takes them.

6. Skiers are going vastly different speeds, where cars are generally similar speeds base on the speed limit.

Are you really saying there is no benefit to glancing uphill when you change your path of travel?

 

I guess I see why you are afraid to ski in the early season. It's really not that tough. You go out, find an opening in the crowd, and ski in it. Then you stop, look uphill, wait for the mass to pass, take the opening, and keep skiing. These openings do exist, because skiers, like cars, for some reason group together and ski in these weird clumps. All you have to do is avoid the clumps.

 

WHen there are no longer openings in the clumps, go home. 

post #302 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofort99 View Post


I've seen him ski. And where I've seen him, anybody that skis at the same speed range/skill level isn't very likely to be somebody you would need to worry about. He is easily in a small handful of the faster/better skiers where he skis, at the very least.

Thank you but left out " for an old dude". (:

post #303 of 1099

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 

Are you really saying there is no benefit to glancing uphill when you change your path of travel?

 

I guess I see why you are afraid to ski in the early season. It's really not that tough. You go out, find an opening in the crowd, and ski in it. Then you stop, look uphill, wait for the mass to pass, take the opening, and keep skiing. These openings do exist, because skiers, like cars, for some reason group together and ski in these weird clumps. All you have to do is avoid the clumps.

 

When there are no longer openings in the clumps, go home. 

No Seg, you haven't understood the seriousness of their situation.

It is dangerous to glance uphill. Some people loose their balance, then might fall down and hit someone or get runover. Besides, what if you're blind??

 

It doesn't matter though, because the skier with the lower elevation on the trail, "downhill", is always right. Anyone coming from a higher elevation, "uphill", has to avoid them no matter what the person downhill does.

 

After decades of the Skier's Code, we've essentially taught people:

                    The Downhill Skier is Always in the Right

 

This is why they got rid of "Downhill" in the more recent Code that also got rid of "Skier"

post #304 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

It is dangerous to glance uphill.

 

Maybe not,  but it's dangerous to expect and/or require skiers below you to glance uphill.

post #305 of 1099

How is it dangerous?

post #306 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

How is it dangerous?

 

Because if you ski in a manner where avoiding a collision hinges on the skier ahead glancing back and they don't glance back, you'll have a collision.

post #307 of 1099
I think what everyone's getting at is that a new skier (or rider) is more likely to lose balance and fall if they are taught to glance uphill before traversing a trail. However, they are not the ones this discussion is focused on. This discussion about glancing uphill has to do with more advanced skiers skiing fast across the slope and how they should maintain situational awareness (SA). I don't think the code needs to be amended, but if you have the ability to glance uphill before traversing a run I think you should. At the same time it sounds like all skiers need some reminders about what is expected on the hill and specifically some examples about how to apply the code.
post #308 of 1099

Geez-Louise, I check out for 24 hours or so, and the thread is up to over 300 posts!!!

At this rate it should overtake the "Carrying a Gun While Skiing" thread in no time...how exciting!

 

The funny things is that Reckless Red and Aggrieved Grey are now probably lounging around in a bar somewhere enjoying a refreshing beverage and watching the game...completely oblivious to the fact that their actions that they have since long forgotten themselves are at this very moment tearing communities apart, pitting Bears against Bears.  T'is very sad.  :(

 

Tsk, Tsk..... 

post #309 of 1099
Quote:
 Overtaking is a difficult thing to define.

 

It's when one person passes another because they're traveling down the hill at a higher rate of speed.

 

Quote:
It gets into uphill/downhill and doesn't account for the current problem - a skier cutting across a trail and hitting someone minding their own business skiing on their side of the trail.
 
With Grey's pathway diagonally across the trail to the left side, you could say like Tpj did, that Grey was overtaking red in trying to get to the left of the trail.

 

If you watch the whole video sequence, red was in the process of passing grey on the left.  Trying to say the skier in grey was "behind" or "overtaking" the one in red seems completely inaccurate to me.  Did the skier in grey slow down and change direction?  Absolutely.  And then the one in red t-boned him from uphill!

 

For someone to "[cut] across a trail and [hit]" you, in almost any situation I can think of either they would have to start well in front of you or they would have to be overtaking you.  In the former situation you should be watching and yielding to them; in the latter they should be watching and yielding to you until they are substantially in front of you.  Grey was well in front of red when he started turning to the left.

 

Quote:
Seems like we're better off with a "be aware" "look" type of rule.

 

You just can't rely on this.  It's a fine thing to suggest as a form of defensive skiing.  But it just cannot be a 'responsibility' or 'rule' the same way something like "yield to people ahead of you" is.

 

You can always ski in such a way that you watch the people ahead of you and give them right of way.  You cannot always ski in such a way that you see every person coming up behind you with adequate warning, read their intentions, and avoid doing anything that might possibly put yourself in any of their possible paths.  You shouldn't give people responsibilities that they can't fulfill.

 

Quote:

Where are you guys coming up with this "let's change the rule so the uphill skier can do what they want" business?

No one is saying that.

 

That seems to be exactly what is being suggested.  That a person struck by another skier/rider who is in the process of overtaking them ought to be at least partially at fault unless they took considerable precaution to watch for and get out of the way of the person coming up from behind.  This is a very, very bad idea IMO.

 

Quote:
The point is if you have a rule where people below get the sense that anyone above them has to avoid them, it absolves them from feeling responsible.

 

The people 'above' do have to avoid them.  The people 'below' should not be responsible in any way for unsafe actions of people 'above' who they cannot easily see or avoid.

post #310 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post
 

Because if you ski in a manner where avoiding a collision hinges on the skier ahead glancing back and they don't glance back, you'll have a collision.

 

The glancing uphill, not back, is for the safety of the skier going across the trail.

If the skier crossing from right side of trail to left side of trail does not glance uphill, there may be someone ahead of the crossing skier. That person would have been uphill of the crossing skier but is ahead of the crosser in the direction the crosser is now moving. I.e., the formerly uphill skier will already be at the left side when the crossing skier gets there.

 

Seven Points to Your Responsibility Code

  1. Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
  2. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
  3. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
  4. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
  5. Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
  6. Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
  7. Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
 
post #311 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post
 

 

That seems to be exactly what is being suggested.  That a person struck by another skier/rider who is in the process of overtaking them ought to be at least partially at fault unless they took considerable precaution to watch for and get out of the way of the person coming up from behind.  This is a very, very bad idea IMO.

 

 

The people 'above' do have to avoid them.  The people 'below' should not be responsible in any way for unsafe actions of people 'above' who they cannot easily see or avoid.

Everyone has basically said Red could've avoided it by paying attention just like Grey. Red did not head for Grey. Grey headed for Red.

The point is people call Red "reckless", but Grey is just as "reckless" for not looking ahead.

 

And Grey t-boned Red, not the other way around.

post #312 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

 

The glancing uphill, not back, is for the safety of the skier going across the trail.

If the skier crossing from right side of trail to left side of trail does not glance uphill, there may be someone ahead of the crossing skier. That person would have been uphill of the crossing skier but is ahead of the crosser in the direction the crosser is now moving. I.e., the formerly uphill skier will already be at the left side when the crossing skier gets there.

 

Seven Points to Your Responsibility Code

  1. Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
  2. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
  3. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
  4. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
  5. Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
  6. Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
  7. Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
 

 

I'll phrase it this way then.  If you ski in a manner where avoiding a collision hinges on a skier in your field of view glancing at you and they don't glance, you'll have a collision.

post #313 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post
 

 

Spend 5 mins watching the live video of skiers at the bottom of Copper and you'll see why this doesn't work:

 

http://www.coppercolorado.com/winter/the_mountain/mountain_webcams/CenterVillage/index.html

 

Skiing is nothing like driving.  Watching that video shows how chaotic skiing is compared to driving.   That looks nothing like cars driving down a highway.

 

Here are a few reason the idea of "lanes" skiing doesn't work and is dangerous:

 

1. Unlike roads there are no lanes marked on a ski hill.

2. Skiers ski all over the trail, while cars tend to stay in the same lane.

3. Skiers turn all the time, where cars generally go straight down the road.

4. Skiers use all different turn shapes and sizes, while turning cars are consistent dictated by the road.

5. Skiers are going different places on the same trail, where cars are going where the road takes them.

6. Skiers are going vastly different speeds, where cars are generally similar speeds base on the speed limit.

Are you really saying there is no benefit to glancing uphill when you change your path of travel?

 

 

Nope.  I never said that.  I said skiing is nothing like driving, and the idea of "lanes" skiing doesn't work and is dangerous.

 

I always glance uphill when I change my path of travel.  That's just smart defensive skiing.

 

I just don't think requiring others to do so makes sense.   As other have pointed out it's not practical for everyone.  More importantly, it makes a dangerous situation worse if an overtaking skier has any expectation others will be looking out for them.

  

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 

I guess I see why you are afraid to ski in the early season. It's really not that tough. You go out, find an opening in the crowd, and ski in it. Then you stop, look uphill, wait for the mass to pass, take the opening, and keep skiing. These openings do exist, because skiers, like cars, for some reason group together and ski in these weird clumps. All you have to do is avoid the clumps.

 

WHen there are no longer openings in the clumps, go home. 

 

 

It's the WROD I'm afraid of... the current conditions just bore me.  I can only ski so many days, and I'm saving them for more fun skiing.

 

Even on a day it's not very crowded like today, it doesn't take very long to catch up to the next clump of skiers traveling at any decent speed.   You then either have to weave through a bunch of slower skiers (dangerous) or adjust to their speed (boring).   

 

Again, watch this video feed.  This is not a highway; there are no lanes, and skiers don't behave like drivers:

http://www.coppercolorado.com/winter/the_mountain/mountain_webcams/CenterVillage/index.html

 

 

post #314 of 1099

heh the Copper video is interesting. Usual skier behavior, people stay in clumps. If you wait 10 seconds you could have only 2 or 3 people on there. Willing to wait 30 seconds maybe no one. Is that a half pipe that no one is in? is that area open?

 

So, tball how would you address the problem of people cutting across the slope, or two people both at the same elevation on the trail and turning toward the center and colliding in the middle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog View Post
 

First off I admit I didn't read all the way through this thread so forgive me if an repeating someone else's sentiments. I have been involve with either writing, altering or adding to 5 pieces of legislation in my state most dealing with safety and one being the Skier Safety and Liability Act.

   Skiing is different  from say driving a car whereby more strict laws apply, as in having to complete a drivers test and having a specific path that you follow  just to mention two.

If you relegate skiers to having license to ski, a specific path to ski, a speed limit, you are altering some of their personal responsibility.

   Most all ski legislation denotes  and declares inherent risk which should be accepted and foreseeable. If you ski you nay be injured or killed despite all reasonable measures that can be taken. The more you make it necessary to follow specific guidelines the more need to enforce  those guidelines or rules by someone.

 

I guess from my perspective anything beyond due care and common sense can get way too involved and convoluted. Ignorance can be somewhat treated with education but you just can't fix stupid with words .  

post #315 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

heh the Copper video is interesting. Usual skier behavior, people stay in clumps. If you wait 10 seconds you could have only 2 or 3 people on there. Willing to wait 30 seconds maybe no one. Is that a half pipe that no one is in? is that area open?

 

 

Yep, that's the half pipe.  Not open yet.  Looks like soon.  That's the first I've seen a snowcat up on top of the half pipe.  Kinda fun to watch:

http://www.coppercolorado.com/winter/the_mountain/mountain_webcams/CenterVillage/index.html

 

That video also show interesting behavior on the ski area's part.  With just a bit of that snow from the half pipe they could have had the other half of the run open.  Instead they take 1/4 of the run for the half pipe and leave all the skiers on a 1/4 of a run.   Seems silly and dangerous to me, but I'm not a half pipe kinda guy.  Also makes for a great case study to watch how erratic skiers are when forced together.

 

Edit: if you want to see a ski "lane" have a look at this video feed from the other side of Copper:

http://www.coppercolorado.com/winter/the_mountain/mountain_webcams/SuperBee/index.html

 

(that's the bottom of US Ski Team's DH training course :))


Edited by tball - 11/21/13 at 2:01pm
post #316 of 1099

That long trail to the right where the cat is, is that where they race DH and Lindsey crashed?

post #317 of 1099

As a committed skier I already know that people gaining on me from behind me are more likely than not to be dangerous 

and that many of them will do what they want without considering me.  I have been passed close by too many times; it's rude.  

I got there first; I have dibs.  But whatever....

 

If two or more people are gaining on me, I tend to pull over and stop, carefully, looking behind first, and I wait till they pass.

 

If I am gaining on folks traveling slowly below me, I slow down and pass them carefully with lots of space so as not to frighten them.

I teach these folks; there's no point in scaring the bejeebers out of tentative skiers/boarders.  I didn't used to do this.  I was inconsiderate and rude.

Becoming a ski instructor has taught me courtesy.  I can now empathize with others on the trail.  I no longer want to show off how fast I can ski.

I was once very very obnoxious.  Confession time.  Sorry.

If I can't slow folks with lots of space, I park myself on the side of the trail for a while and enjoy the view, then proceed when the path is clear.

It's a bummer, but I now know that's what needs to be done when there's a crowd on the trail.

 

And now thanks to this thread I am aware that a group of folks who are not inconsiderate are also counting on me to avoid them when they are uphill of me.  

I didn't know this before.  It's disturbing.  

 

So... I will be even more worried from now on, and looking up behind me even more.

There goes that loving feeling -- of freedom on the trail.

But whatever.

post #318 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

That long trail to the right where the cat is, is that where they race DH and Lindsey crashed?

 

Nope, it's over on the Super Bee side of the Mountain where Copper has this video feed at the bottom:

http://www.coppercolorado.com/winter/the_mountain/mountain_webcams/SuperBee/index.html

 

Here's a shot of her flying down her lane the day before she crashed:

 

 

Wow, that's a nice looking lane!

post #319 of 1099

Wrong thead???

post #320 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

As a committed skier I already know that people gaining on me from behind me are more likely than not to be dangerous 

and that many of them will do what they want without considering me.  I have been passed close by too many times; it's rude.  

I got there first; I have dibs.  But whatever....

 

If two or more people are gaining on me, I tend to pull over and stop, carefully, looking behind first, and I wait till they pass.

 

If I am gaining on folks traveling slowly below me, I slow down and pass them slowly with lots of space so as not to frighten them.

I teach these folks; there's no point in scaring the bejeebers out of tentative skiers/boarders.  It's inconsiderate and rude.

If I can't pass them with lots of space, I park myself on the side of the trail for a while and enjoy the view, then proceed when the path is clear.

It's a bummer, but that's what needs to be done when the trails are crowded.

 

And now thanks to this thread I am aware that a group of folks who are not inconsiderate are also counting on me to avoid them when they are uphill of me.  

I didn't know this before.  It's disturbing.  

 

So... I will be even more worried from now on, and looking up behind me even more.

There goes that loving feeling of freedom on the trail.

But whatever.

 

Do you want the Elvis version of "You've lost that lovin' feelin'"?

Lf, don't stress about this. Nothing in the world of skiing has changed since this thread started. (I'm sure of that one:rolleyes)

Everything is as it was. People who are going to fly downhill will still do it and don't care if you're below or ahead.

 

"And now thanks to this thread I am aware that a group of folks who are not inconsiderate are also counting on me to avoid them when they are uphill of me."

 
No one is counting on that at all. Total misinterpretation. "We", those who think it's a good idea to glance uphill went you cut across a slope, simply assume that everyone is capable of just about anything at anytime. "We" assume unless proven otherwise, you'll will not be looking. Also assume unless proven otherwise, you're incapable of avoiding anyone else.

If you're skiing in a predictable pattern at a lower level - not expert, you're much more unlikely to suddenly go to high edge angle and zip across the slope. You're likely to stay in your lane. It's the in betweeners and the good skiers who don't believe they need to glance uphill that are a danger.

 

The whole point of the thread is not up hill down hill, but across and ahead.

What do you do with two people at the same elevation who turn toward the middle at the same time?? Neither is uphill. Neither is "Above" .How should the code encompass that? "We" think something should be in there about looking. That's it.

 

disclaimer: "We" may not agree with everything above.

post #321 of 1099

Well, I think we've beat this horse.  We all agree that it would be nice if everyone on the hill had situational awareness all the time.  At least we agree on that.  

 

This whole issue is rarely a problem at Whitefish.  :D  Except for the Ant Hill on holidays.  In which case I either go home or move to some other part of the mountain.  I've become adjusted to only sharing the hill with...the snow.  

post #322 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

So, tball how would you address the problem of people cutting across the slope, or two people both at the same elevation on the trail and turning toward the center and colliding in the middle?

 

Here's my idea on how to make the slopes safer and reduce collisions.  I was waiting for someone to finally ask :)

 

1. Give the uphill skier additional responsibility to pass with care.

 
@Bob Barnes did a great job outlining a better skier code with additional responsibilities for the uphill skier (highlighted):
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

Here is a significantly better (in my opinion) translation of the FIS code:

 

1. Respect for others. A skier must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others.
2. Control of speed and skiing. A skier must ski in control. He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing to his personal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as well as to the density of traffic.


3. Choice of route. A skier coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger skiers ahead. In other words, the skier in front/below always has priority.


4. Overtaking. A skier may overtake another skier above or below and to the right or the left, provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken skier to make any voluntary or involuntary movement.


5. Entering and starting. A skier entering a marked run or starting again after stopping must look up and down the run to make sure that he can do so without endangering himself or others.
6. Stopping on the piste. Unless absolutely necessary, a skier must avoid stopping on the piste in narrow places or where visibility is restricted. After a fall in such a place, a skier must move clear of the piste as soon as possible.
7. Climbing and descending on foot. Whether climbing or descending on foot, the skier must keep to the side of the piste.
8. Respect for signs and markings. A skier must respect all signs and markings.
9. Assistance. At accidents every skier is duty-bound to assist.
10.Identification. Every skier and witness, whether a responsible party or not, must exchange names and addresses following an accident.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/82663/skier-rider-code-of-conduct#post_1081375

 

 

2. Give the downhill skier some partial responsibility to avoid collisions (as currently exists in Colorado law)

 

Quote:
 

(2) Each skier has the duty to maintain control of his speed and course at all times when skiing and to maintain a proper lookout so as to be able to avoid other skiers and objects. However, the primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid collision with any person or objects below him. 

http://www.nsprmd.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=270&Itemid=355

 

3. Adopt a "nobody has the right away" rule as used in maritime navigation

 

Quote:
A commonly held misconception concerning the rules of marine navigation is that by following specific rules, a vessel can gain certain rights of way over other vessels. No vessel ever has absolute "right of way" over other vessels. Rather, there can be a "give way" (burdened) vessel and a "stand on" (privileged) vessel, or there may be two give way vessels with no stand on vessel. A stand on vessel does not have an absolute right of way over any give way vessel, for if there is a risk of collision, a stand on vessel may still be obliged under Rule 2 to give way so as to avoid it, if doing so will be effective and is practicable. Two power-driven vessels approaching each other head to head, are both deemed to be "give way" and both are required to alter course so as to avoid colliding with the other. Neither vessel has "right of way".
 

 

I think some thoughtful combination of those three into the skier code and state laws would help.  A lot of education would also be necessary.  

 

As I've said before, education of the current skier code and laws would be a great place to start.

post #323 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

 

What do you do with two people at the same elevation who turn toward the middle at the same time??

 

Use Rudy's code.

post #324 of 1099

Who's Rudy?

post #325 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

No, it is not fine in this situation.  What is fine in this situation is Red is responsible for avoiding grey.    What is also fine is beginners can traverse across the slope without having to stop every three seconds, and being in terror of being impaled by a pair of skis from some expert who would like to ski as if he were the only skier on the run and doesn't want to accept full responsibility for his actions.

 

The beginner who is traversing a slope is not the problem,  Beginners move slowly.  The problem is the guy who is skiing fast across the slope.  This person is moving fast enough that when they appear in a downhill skiers peripheral vision there is not much time to react.  I'm not saying that skiers should never ski fast across the hill.  I am saying that it is riskier and someone who is doing that should be aware of that and take measures to increase their own safety.  I usually sneak a quick peek as I start a turn that will take me across the hill.

There are rules of the road and then there is defensive driving (and then the super safe Ghost TM Offensive driving).  I always do my best to know how is around me in all directions.  I usually do look up the hill before skiing up a run.  The last time I did that I got surprised by a kicker some boarders had built at the confluence of the run I was on and the one I was looking up into as I intended to turn up, and broke a rib or two in the ensuing fall; I had already determined there was no possibility of other skiers there, but wasn't looking where I was going and didn't notice the small but abrupt kicker (2 foot).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post

Red guy starts the video in the middle of the piste with the grey guy clearly ahead and in his field of vision. He then moves over to the left side of the piste in a position where he can no longer see the grey guy and never once looks over to his right to ensure that he has safely overtaken him. That's reckless. Just because he's skiing a fairly straight line doesn't negate the fact that he's voluntarily put himself into a dangerous position and stayed there for a significant period of time.

And finally, your "look over the shoulder" idea is simply not practical or applicable in too many situations. If you're in a crowd, looking over your shoulder endangers those who are ahead of you for the entire time you're looking over your shoulder. If someone in front of you crashes and you have to take evasive action (like the third skier in the video), you don't have time to look over your shoulder before making your move. If you unexpectedly catch an edge and veer to the side, you obviously haven't planned that and, thus, won't be able to look over your shoulder until it's already too late.

But in all three of those scenarios and in the case of a planned, voluntary change of direction, the idea of uphill/above/behind/whatever skiers/boarders watching out for those who are ahead/below/in front/whatever and maintaining a safe distance is applicable and practical. If the red guy had followed the code, he never would have put himself in the position he was in when the grey guy made his unexpected change of direction.

 

The "look over the shoulder" when changing lanes at 65mph on the highway is not only practical but recommended and safer. It's a glance. to check your blind spot. On snow you're not going to run in into people simply by looking to see who is uphill as you cut across that hill.

But the issue is your use of "ahead". You say:

"If you're in a crowd, looking over your shoulder endangers those who are ahead of you for the entire time you're looking over your shoulder."

When you're cutting across, you're no longer going downhill much, ahead is now the other side of the trail. You're not descending downhill at a rate of speed that's going to cause you to mow down skiers simply by glancing over the shoulder.

 

How about this:

Suppose Mr. Grey is not a skier but a snowboarder whose on heel side cutting across facing downhill. Same exact path, same collision.

Probably a good percentage of those blaming Red would now blame the snowboarder for cutting across the slope blind.

I suspect people would say Grey guy has now, as you wrote about Red, "voluntarily put himself into a dangerous position and stayed there for a significant period of time."
 

If a snowboarder makes a heelside turn into your line, dude, you gotta avoid him.

 

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Originally Posted by tball View Post
 
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Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post
 
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Originally Posted by markojp View Post
On very rare occasion, I've passed someone a little closely for THEIR comfort... around 15~20'. I could tell they were  startled. I'll slow down, pull up and apologize. I was the passing skier. It doesn't matter a lick that they turned toward my path. It doesn't matter that they didn't look up the hill or use their turn signals. It's me, the overtaking skier that has to watch out for them. An apology works wonders.

 

You're my hero.  THAT is the right mindset!  I've done a similar thing when free skating in public, and passing near people who are far slower.  Personally I think it's our responsibility to watch out for people who aren't as good and be mindful of their limitations, not just our own.

 

Yes!  

 

I'll add that if you want to let your skis run, do so on a slope empty enough there is little chance of collision, or challenge yourself on advance/expert terrain where the speeds are slower and there are few skiers.   

 

If you are skiing where you have to pass many skiers to have fun, you are skiing in the wrong place at the wrong time.   Speed differiental is what is dangerous and results in collisions.  Slow down when you pass someone! 

 

And, yes, that is pretty much impossible on the terrain available at the moment, which is why I haven't been skiing yet.

Yes.  Thanks for rubbing it in.  The place is called Ontario Canada.  I should be skiing in BC or at least Alberta, preferably on the back side with nobody else in sight.

post #326 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post

 

 

The people 'above' do have to avoid them.  The people 'below' should not be responsible in any way for unsafe actions of people 'above' who they cannot easily see or avoid.

I agree with the first statement but I disagree with the 2nd.  All skiers, even the downhill/ahead skier, have the responsibility to be safety conscious and avoid other skiers.  Would you advise your kid to cross the street where there is a stop sign without looking because the cars are required to stop?  Would you make a left turn as soon as the light turns yellow because the oncoming traffic has the obligation to stop?  I know that I verify the cars that are suppose to stop see me and are in fact going to stop.

 

My main priority is to do what I can to stay safe, not be able to sue someone after I get hurt.  The Code's first priority should be to prevent collisions/injuries/accidents, not be able to easily assign blame after the fact.   

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post
 

 

I'll phrase it this way then.  If you ski in a manner where avoiding a collision hinges on a skier in your field of view glancing at you and they don't glance, you'll have a collision.

And if the downhill skier takes the attitude that they can do whatever they want without looking because the uphill skier has to yield to them, you will also have more collisions than you should.

 

Again, I am not advocating the repeal of point 2 of the code.  Rather I am saying that the code requires all skiers to be safety conscious and avoid collisions- to me this means Looking up before (or as) you change up.

 

I recall taking a driving test that had a multiple choice answer regarding right of way.  The correct answer was "Never insist on it."  Uphill skiers should be taught to yield to and avoid skiers ahead of them, but downhill skiers should not use this as an excuse to behave recklessly.  Red was clearly reckless by having tunnel vision and not paying more attention to Gray, but name 1 thing Gray did that showed they were safety conscious (or able to avoid other skiers- #1 in the code).

 

Red may have been mostly at fault, but to see Gray as the completely fault free victim, you have to ignore significant portions of the code.   

post #327 of 1099
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Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Who's Rudy?

post #328 of 1099
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Originally Posted by MEfree30 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post
 

 

I'll phrase it this way then.  If you ski in a manner where avoiding a collision hinges on a skier in your field of view glancing at you and they don't glance, you'll have a collision.

And if the downhill skier takes the attitude that they can do whatever they want without looking because the uphill skier has to yield to them, you will also have more collisions than you should.

 

My comment applies to all skiers...uphill, downhill, zis side, zat side and in ze middle.

post #329 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Everyone has basically said Red could've avoided it by paying attention just like Grey. Red did not head for Grey. Grey headed for Red.

 

Red was passing Grey and then Grey changed directions/speed.  Red was too close and/or not paying attention while passing.  You can't ski right behind and adjacent to someone else and then blame them when they 'cut you off' or 'turn into your line'.

 

Red is supposed to be skiing in such a manner that they can avoid Grey, because Grey cannot see or avoid Red nearly as easily as Red can see and avoid Grey.

 

Quote:
The point is people call Red "reckless", but Grey is just as "reckless" for not looking ahead.

 

Red wasn't "reckless", but he was negligent IMO.

 

Grey was (presumably) looking "ahead", no matter what way you define "ahead" (either 'along the trail' or 'down the fall line' or 'in his overall direction of travel').  What he was not doing is looking 'uphill', which is not in any of those directions.  Doing that would in fact require him to not be looking "ahead", because he would have to be looking backwards over his shoulder to see Red coming.
 

Quote:

And Grey t-boned Red, not the other way around.

 

Looked at it again.  Red's tips went into the side of Grey's skis as far as I can tell.  Grey was 'downhill' and Red was moving faster and hit him from the side.  Had Red been a tiny bit faster Grey might have clipped him sideways, but since Red was overtaking Grey it still would have been Red's fault.

 

Quote:
My main priority is to do what I can to stay safe, not be able to sue someone after I get hurt.  The Code's first priority should be to prevent collisions/injuries/accidents, not be able to easily assign blame after the fact.  

 

There's a couple different things going on here.

 

"The Code" is, in one sense, a set of guidelines designed to help reduce accidents.  On that basis I have no problem advocating that people should maintain situational awareness, particularly when changing their overall direction of travel.  Yes, you should look both ways before you cross the street even when the signal says you have the right of way.

 

In another sense it is a set of best practices that can be used as part of decisions of 'fault' or liability in a legal sense, particularly in states like Colorado where some version of "the code" is state law.  I do not agree with anything that puts less responsibility on the uphill skier in situations like this.

 

If you're talking about fault, this accident was 100% avoidable by the skier in red taking reasonable precaution.  It possibly could have been avoided by the skier in grey being abundantly cautious.  Depends on when he looked uphill and if he caught the skier in red in his peripheral vision and was able to adjust his line or slow down at the last second.

 

The laws of physics and the need to look where you are going most of the time mean that you generally cannot be held responsible for getting out of the way of people who are trying to overtake you.  At least IMO.

post #330 of 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post
 

Red was passing Grey and then Grey changed directions/speed.  Red was too close and/or not paying attention while passing.  You can't ski right behind and adjacent to someone else and then blame them when they 'cut you off' or 'turn into your line'.

 

Red is supposed to be skiing in such a manner that they can avoid Grey, because Grey cannot see or avoid Red nearly as easily as Red can see and avoid Grey.

 

 

Red wasn't "reckless", but he was negligent IMO.

 

Grey was (presumably) looking "ahead", no matter what way you define "ahead" (either 'along the trail' or 'down the fall line' or 'in his overall direction of travel').  What he was not doing is looking 'uphill', which is not in any of those directions.  Doing that would in fact require him to not be looking "ahead", because he would have to be looking backwards over his shoulder to see Red coming.
 

 

Looked at it again.  Red's tips went into the side of Grey's skis as far as I can tell.  Grey was 'downhill' and Red was moving faster and hit him from the side.  Had Red been a tiny bit faster Grey might have clipped him sideways, but since Red was overtaking Grey it still would have been Red's fault.

 

 

There's a couple different things going on here.

 

"The Code" is, in one sense, a set of guidelines designed to help reduce accidents.  On that basis I have no problem advocating that people should maintain situational awareness, particularly when changing their overall direction of travel.  Yes, you should look both ways before you cross the street even when the signal says you have the right of way.

 

In another sense it is a set of best practices that can be used as part of decisions of 'fault' or liability in a legal sense, particularly in states like Colorado where some version of "the code" is state law.  I do not agree with anything that puts less responsibility on the uphill skier in situations like this.

 

If you're talking about fault, this accident was 100% avoidable by the skier in red taking reasonable precaution.  It possibly could have been avoided by the skier in grey being abundantly cautious.  Depends on when he looked uphill and if he caught the skier in red in his peripheral vision and was able to adjust his line or slow down at the last second.

 

The laws of physics and the need to look where you are going most of the time mean that you generally cannot be held responsible for getting out of the way of people who are trying to overtake you.  At least IMO.

 

Red wasn't passing anybody. Red was skiing like no one else was in his way and not paying attention. No one was in his way till Grey came over  and T-Boned Red!

Was Red Negligent? Sure. So was Grey.

Grey was still more at fault for hitting Red from the side. Grey was not "looking ahead" he was zoning on the ground about 10 feet in front. Like most people.

 

I agree with most of your statements.

 

I also think people are not being realistic. When someone is going 40mph even good skiers take lots of space to stop or take evasive action. So drifting across a trail without glancing uphill like you freakin' own it cause "your downhill" and "they have to avoid me" is just dumb.

No different than MeFree pointed out with crossing the street at a stop sign. Will the car stop? Better make sure before you head across. Yeah if you get hit it's the car's fault, but is it worth it to be right?

 

Reposted because it's so far back at this point.

 

http://youtu.be/JutHK2eRp10

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