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Interesting vehicle performance comparisons in snow - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellracing View Post

My technique when in snow/torrential rain is to occasionally see how much braking force it takes to lock the front wheels momentarily, and then I'll know how much traction I should have and allow for it. ABS is ridiculously cautious on most cars, and ends up being a (sometimes dangerous) hindrance when you're expecting the car to gently brake, when you know there is traction, and ABS kicks in and you suddenly keep rolling! Ever since I started driving (10 years, started when I was 12 at the farm) I've had no ABS until my last car, so I've kinda got used to feeling your locking points.

I'm aware the ABS 'intelligence' varies from car to car.

That is interesting. I've never came across with ABS activating when wheels are not very close to locking up.
post #32 of 53

Sounds like a teenager w/ a six pack in you on a Saturday night. Ignoring the rules of the road is a obvious sign of lacking experience/skill as a driver and a blatant disregard for public safety.   Stay off the public roads your a hazard to yourself and any unfortunate persons around you.

post #33 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Sounds like a teenager w/ a six pack in you on a Saturday night. Ignoring the rules of the road is a obvious sign of lacking experience/skill as a driver and a blatant disregard for public safety.   Stay off the public roads your a hazard to yourself and any unfortunate persons around you.

Nobody is suggesting to ignore or ignoring the rules of the road or public safety...you sir, have a rather cynical view of looking at people lol
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Sounds like a teenager w/ a six pack in you on a Saturday night. Ignoring the rules of the road is a obvious sign of lacking experience/skill as a driver and a blatant disregard for public safety.   Stay off the public roads your a hazard to yourself and any unfortunate persons around you.

Nobody is suggesting to ignore or ignoring the rules of the road or public safety...you sir, have a rather cynical view of looking at people lol


Only when they get behind the wheel.:duel:Keep it on the farm and hammer down,no worries.

post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post

Nobody is suggesting to ignore or ignoring the rules of the road or public safety...you sir, have a rather cynical view of looking at people lol

Oh chill out. So you're saying a controlled drift on an empty, 10 metre wide road at 30mph is dangerous and likely to kill someone at any moment?

I'm not going to try anything risky in traffic, nor am I going to drive near the limit when I'm anything less than 100% in control of the vehicle. I'd like to think I'm safer than your average driver texting while driving, or half asleep.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 

Sounds like a teenager w/ a six pack in you on a Saturday night. Ignoring the rules of the road is a obvious sign of lacking experience/skill as a driver and a blatant disregard for public safety.   Stay off the public roads your a hazard to yourself and any unfortunate persons around you.

 

 

if you know how to drift , its remarkably easy to control in the right car with enough room in low traction situation.

 

I use to go out during snowstorms and drive on tight twisty uncrowded roads just to get a feel for a car sliding, it was tons of fun and has made me much safe driver than someone who does not know how to control sliding.

post #37 of 53

No matter what skill level/experience a driver possesses or the vehicle he operates,unless it is in a controlled environment you can not exclude the unforeseen possibility of shit happens. 3.5 million miles later you just never know what's around the next corner. 

post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 

No matter what skill level/experience a driver possesses or the vehicle he operates,unless it is in a controlled environment you can not exclude the unforeseen possibility of shit happens. 3.5 million miles later you just never know what's around the next corner. 

 

 

I would argue a good drifter is in totally control at least no more or no less as someone who is not drifting.

post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 

No matter what skill level/experience a driver possesses or the vehicle he operates,unless it is in a controlled environment you can not exclude the unforeseen possibility of shit happens. 3.5 million miles later you just never know what's around the next corner. 

 

 

I would argue a good drifter is in totally control at least no more or no less as someone who is not drifting.

 


So your saying that a vehicle that has a loss of traction(drifting)has better control than one that has traction. You are mistaking driving skills with Physics. But you have a point that a professional driver can preform maneuvers  that are in as much control as a less skilled driver. As long as it is in a controlled environment. And that is my point. People think that they are in total control of their vehicle,which they might be at that moment but because they are NOT on a closed course and are on a public road eventually find out the hard way for many reasons which they drive right into because they lack experience. Should of,could of, would of.  How many times a week do you preform a complete VI pre-trip on your car?  How's your driving record,clean?  Lets face it anyone that says they like to drive fast and drift cars on public roads don't have a clue about what real professional driving is about or they won't be doing it.

post #40 of 53

I would urge folks to drive sanely on the street, especially in slippery conditions, and take your desires to use your car control skills to the race track. I've done my share of track driving and personally been OFF several times at race tracks racing in the rain while driving high performance cars on race tires, and have been very fortunate to have never hit anything hard. I don't take these chances on the street - where my mission is always to arrive safely. There are plenty of High Performance Driving Events offered by many car clubs, and they don't cost much either. When you're on the race track everyone else is trying to go fast too - on the street not so much. Also, there are unexpected surprises on the street such as deer and moose...

post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 

 


So your saying that a vehicle that has a loss of traction(drifting)has better control than one that has traction. You are mistaking driving skills with Physics. But you have a point that a professional driver can preform maneuvers  that are in as much control as a less skilled driver. As long as it is in a controlled environment. And that is my point. People think that they are in total control of their vehicle,which they might be at that moment but because they are NOT on a closed course and are on a public road eventually find out the hard way for many reasons which they drive right into because they lack experience. Should of,could of, would of.  How many times a week do you preform a complete VI pre-trip on your car?  How's your driving record,clean?  Lets face it anyone that says they like to drive fast and drift cars on public roads don't have a clue about what real professional driving is about or they won't be doing it.

 

 

my driving record is not clean, I have a few evading and eluding charges from time I legit out ran the police I also have many more time where I got a way with out ever being caught Simply put I out drove them, sometime it was more than one. As far as I know I am probably the best skilled Autocrosser on this board or at least was, and have multiple Fastest Time of Days. I have also dabbled in shifter karts, road racing, hill climbs, Rally Cross, and a couple tarmac rallys even doing a couple illegal mountain races in western vriginia and soundly crushing the competion. I have competed at the professional level with out ever being professional outside of tire/gear sponsorship this was all prior to me skiing i was also young and dumb and knew the cops had no chance running me down in any of my cars at the time especially my track car. 

 

I have never wrecked a car with the exception of a slow speed 4 mph bump on a driveway sheet off ice and off cambered..... I have driven legally on tracks at 150mp+ I have driven on public roads at 200 mph plus.

 

I know your a professional truck driver. which you do is so different then what I did I have no idea how could make the assumption.

 

someone who can see clearly though a turn on a snow day, and has even medicore skill can do pretty controlled drift in low traction situation , I am not talling about dry pavement tarmac drifting here we are talking about slow speed turns in slow conditions. I seriously recommend any one to find a wide open parking lot covered with snow and find out how to controll your car in limited traction situation you never know when you may need it.

 

this me driving listen to the annoucer as he tells the FTD, then announce my time which is better. I ended up with FTD that day. He got my name wrong though , Kent is my(was) co driver.

 

 

chris why the hell were your using race tires in the rain on a track? that is some scary shit.  I use to use these, generally I was faster in the wet than in the dry and my only instance going off course on race track was from brake fade going from 140 mph to 50 into a hairpin, luckly there was TONS of run out as hit the first at like 90mph..

 

 

 

hooser dirt stocker bias ply, sticky stick tread, tons of opening and bias ply stay hotter than radials when the rain is cooling the tires down.

post #42 of 53
Thread Starter 
@bellracing Don't quote me. I'm cool as a cucumber...

To all those folks going rambo about car going sideways, as long as the car is under control, I don't see a problem with that. In slippery condition, sometimes you have to allow the rear to kick out a bit to cancel the understeering. Of course, if the driver does not know what he or she is doing, then it's a different story. On ski hills there are skilled racers bombing down the hill at 80-100kph. But you can tell they are perfectly under control, and I have no problem with that (well apart from they are faster than me...). If there is an idiot try to pull the same stunt without knowing what he or she is doing, then I have a problem with that. There is a clear difference between the two.
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post

@bellracing Don't quote me. I'm cool as a cucumber...

To all those folks going rambo about car going sideways, as long as the car is under control, I don't see a problem with that. In slippery condition, sometimes you have to allow the rear to kick out a bit to cancel the understeering. Of course, if the driver does not know what he or she is doing, then it's a different story. On ski hills there are skilled racers bombing down the hill at 80-100kph. But you can tell they are perfectly under control, and I have no problem with that (well apart from they are faster than me...). If there is an idiot try to pull the same stunt without knowing what he or she is doing, then I have a problem with that. There is a clear difference between the two.
Oops, quoted the wrong post:)

I completely see where the guys who are against such messing around are coming from. I've often seen people drive far beyond their limits, or without any allowance for the eventuality of another car appearing etc.

I just often meet people who basically think you're going to hell in a handcart and about to kill someone by going 50mph on a 40mph road. Up in Canada you can have a 45-50mph speed limit on a 2-mile straight road.

At the end of the day it's judgement, and I'll never say I'm the best driver out there (unless it's in karts, in which case you're getting beaten). I just drive within my limits, always be in control of what's happening with the car.

Peace to the forums, man. Lol

I've had people get their license taken off them for a few donuts in an empty parking lot. Harm to society? Zero. Danger? Zero.
post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellracing View Post


Oops, quoted the wrong post:)

I completely see where the guys who are against such messing around are coming from. I've often seen people drive far beyond their limits, or without any allowance for the eventuality of another car appearing etc.

I just often meet people who basically think you're going to hell in a handcart and about to kill someone by going 50mph on a 40mph road. Up in Canada you can have a 45-50mph speed limit on a 2-mile straight road.

At the end of the day it's judgement, and I'll never say I'm the best driver out there (unless it's in karts, in which case you're getting beaten). I just drive within my limits, always be in control of what's happening with the car.

Peace to the forums, man. Lol

I've had people get their license taken off them for a few donuts in an empty parking lot. Harm to society? Zero. Danger? Zero.

 

 

you drive shifters? 

post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post


you drive shifters? 

Yeah yeah:) 125 shifters. Turned to them after getting injured at motocross too many times! Did a few laps in a 250 SuperKart, wooooo that thing reconfigures your perception of time and space:)
post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellracing View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post

@bellracing Don't quote me. I'm cool as a cucumber...

To all those folks going rambo about car going sideways, as long as the car is under control, I don't see a problem with that. In slippery condition, sometimes you have to allow the rear to kick out a bit to cancel the understeering. Of course, if the driver does not know what he or she is doing, then it's a different story. On ski hills there are skilled racers bombing down the hill at 80-100kph. But you can tell they are perfectly under control, and I have no problem with that (well apart from they are faster than me...). If there is an idiot try to pull the same stunt without knowing what he or she is doing, then I have a problem with that. There is a clear difference between the two.
Oops, quoted the wrong post:)

I completely see where the guys who are against such messing around are coming from. I've often seen people drive far beyond their limits, or without any allowance for the eventuality of another car appearing etc.

I just often meet people who basically think you're going to hell in a handcart and about to kill someone by going 50mph on a 40mph road. Up in Canada you can have a 45-50mph speed limit on a 2-mile straight road.

At the end of the day it's judgement, and I'll never say I'm the best driver out there (unless it's in karts, in which case you're getting beaten). I just drive within my limits, always be in control of what's happening with the car.

Peace to the forums, man. Lol

I've had people get their license taken off them for a few donuts in an empty parking lot. Harm to society? Zero. Danger? Zero.


 Agreed. Don't involve others. Cops well that's a whole other can of worms.:(

post #47 of 53

I bet those who are against drifting on public roads are also against skiing over 45 mph outside of a closed race course.

 

When I was a reckless (also wreckless) youngster, I drifted more turns than I could count on dry pavement at 100+ mph, and only had one close call when I had to adjust my line and dip the right rear weel onto the gravel shoulder to squeeze back onto my lane (45 mph corner two-lane black top taken at tripple the recommended speed) when I observed that due to oncomming traffic I didn't have the whole road to myself.  I've also driven in low traction situations for hundreds of thousands of miles.  I won my fair share of races with the POlice too; never lost a race.   From my experience I can say there is a big difference between high speed reckless at the limit driving and drifting along in some snow/ice at a reasonable speed.  They are not the same thing at all.

 

So long as you have the visibility to see around the corner and there is a big enough safety zone on (especially on the outside of the corner where you will end up harmlessly stopped in the ditch given your speed, and not a ditch with culverts and other deadly obstacles that you could hit before you stop, and not another car you may hit, I don't see a problem with people playing drifting their cars, even with people learning how to drift their cars.  It's far safer than most things drivers regularly do.

 

I also have no problem with people skiing fast on public slopes outside the race course, so long as they are in control.  Same with drivers, if you are driving under control such that you can aviod collisions, you are good to go.

 

BTW, I don't race the police now; my life's worth more than a speeding ticket, and so is everybody elses.

post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

chris why the hell were your using race tires in the rain on a track? that is some scary shit.  I use to use these, generally I was faster in the wet than in the dry

 

Josh, I was on race tires with grooves for rain channeling most of times I've been off in the rain, and generally showed up at events with as many as 4 different types of race tires - some with grooves and some without, and different rubber compounds for temperature. That you say you were generally faster in the rain than the dry is either BS, you can't drive in the dry, or you're reference is to other slower drivers that day that happened to be poor rain drivers - and not wet/dry lap times on the same race track. The way I have gone off in the rain is simply trying to get my lap times closer to as fast as I put down in the dry - and just when I'm starting to close in there's not enough track to stay on, or there's another car spinning I'm trying to miss since I prefer softer targets...

post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post
 

 

Josh, I was on race tires with grooves for rain channeling most of times I've been off in the rain, and generally showed up at events with as many as 4 different types of race tires - some with grooves and some without, and different rubber compounds for temperature. That you say you were generally faster in the rain than the dry is either BS, you can't drive in the dry, or you're reference is to other slower drivers that day that happened to be poor rain drivers - and not wet/dry lap times on the same race track. The way I have gone off in the rain is simply trying to get my lap times closer to as fast as I put down in the dry - and just when I'm starting to close in there's not enough track to stay on, or there's another car spinning I'm trying to miss since I prefer softer targets...

 

 

I meant faster by comparision I am much slower compared to myself in the dry..... thats what I met.

post #50 of 53

Maybe Josh's dry tires had something to be desired.  Back in the day, I remember being surprised that I could corner fast in the rain on my new Metzler Comp Ks than in the dry on my old Michelin 66s. 

post #51 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Maybe Josh's dry tires had something to be desired.  Back in the day, I remember being surprised that I could corner fast in the rain on my new Metzler Comp Ks than in the dry on my old Michelin 66s. 

 

 

faster by proportional. IE on 60 second dry course if i was winning by 3 seconds  on the wet course it may take my 70 seconds but I was winning by 5 seconds. IE was better in the wet then in the dry but not faster.

post #52 of 53
D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post


faster by proportional. IE on 60 second dry course if i was winning by 3 seconds  on the wet course it may take my 70 seconds but I was winning by 5 seconds. IE was better in the wet then in the dry but not faster.

What do you guys race? Karts?
post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellracing View Post

D
What do you guys race? Karts?

 

 

I use to race cars, i am jsut throwing numbers out that are not true to say I am proportinally faster because apparently people can not read.

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