Originally Posted by borntoski683
Originally Posted by Tog
Bts, you're leaving out one factor. You talk about the COM "moving" at toppling - by flexing or extending, but it's already moving before that point. If you manage it properly the COM, can move over the skis at transition and neither flexion or extension is required to change edges. No tipping needed either. The body moves the legs which moves the boots which tips the edges and away we go.
no sir. If you are balanced on your skis on the inside of one turn, you need to "release" it to move across. You might do that starting early or wait until later, but there is something you must do to move out of balance. Flexing and extending are two ways. You can also angulate to start it moving. You can also pre-turn your skis. Your CoM does not move across on its own.
Originally Posted by zentune
So, I'm not convinced that the CM moving across is a predestined event--at least, not without something else happening. Can't I simply continue across the fall line after exiting the turn by reducing self steering and head straight towards the trees (un-tipping followed by no tipping) ? Or can't I even continue my turn across and then, eventually, uphill until I stop (no un-tipping)? Don't these tipping and un-tipping movements necessitate a change in leg length? Nothing is forcing the bos/cm to cross paths, though of course after the fall line the convergence seems like it surely will happen....
Well it's no wonder we get into these "extension" versus "flexing" debates and it's either one or the other. You both are pretty much saying the same thing - namely you do not believe that the body moving over the skis is enough to release the skis and start the new turn. Zenny, it is not a "predestined" event. If it was, everyone without even trying would be able to smoothly link turns and powder wouldn't be such a struggle on non fat skis. Your "can't I..." statements I find bizarre and really don't know what you mean. Of course you can do anything you want. What does it have to do with this?
First off, I'm not saying that every turn is this way, nor does it have to be, but it is a mode of releasing the skis and ending/starting the new turn.
Is there a change in leg length? Well most likely, but it also means from when? There's a change in leg length sometimes in a wedge turn if there's a subtle sinking at the bottom of the turn and a rise out of it. In more dynamic turns, you are going to be more flexed at the bottom, so obviously your legs lengthen as you come out of it. Part of that lengthening is what's used to direct the CoM.
You mean leg length looking only at the transition?- yes, maybe, perhaps, not neceesarily. You could pull it off with the body essentially going over the feet as pivot points. That would have none or little change- at moment of transition. As the body falls inside the outside leg lengthens. You could allow the legs to extend and the extension would not be the cause of the release but the effect of the body moving over. You might not have that choice depending on how the trajectories worked out. And of course you could speed everything up and extend the uphill at the right time and flex the downhill at the same time/slightly after.
In order for it to work, you must manage both the body as it comes through the turn and also the direction and edge angle of the skis. The body crosses over at the transition taking the edges with it. You can just get to the end of the turn and suddenly realized you have to move the body. Too late. Nor can you come out of the turn with your edges still set way into the hill. You strive to come out of the turn in neutral, or better to "ski into neutral". Neutral meaning "critical edge angle" - angle at which any less and the skis will release. (On a shallow slope it's close to "flat" on steeper slopes one can still have considerable edge angle.)
You can also force body and the base of support to cross paths by directing the arc of the skis to cross under. Of course, you can easily negate it by keeping the body uphill, so it's not just directing the arc, one still has to direct the body.
Btw, this is way simpler than it sounds. It may not always be easy nor possible or even wanted. But it certainly can be easy, and when the timing is right skiing feels nearly effortless.
Bts, you say there is something you must do to release the turn. Instead of going into another example here, I'll just ask what about vaulting? You aren't doing anything there and you're skis are released. Yes, if you don't manage it properly you'll go across the hill or high side it, but managed you'll launch into the turn yet you didn't do anything to "release" other than direct the arc.