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Teaching beginners: flex to release or extend to release? - Page 8  

post #211 of 225

Come on baby! Let's do the twist!

 

SD - I have had a rare first time student or two "carve" on day 1. It's extremely scary because they feel emboldened to advance their terrain choice to slopes where their carved turns place them in danger of collisions with other beginner skiers making 11s. I've found that it's just as hard to teach them to skid the skis as it to teach skidders to carve. With the right gear and the right terrain, I have taught first timers to ski without a wedge and without a taught pivot. Most will pivot either naturally or skid via a brushed approach (reduced edge angle for the speed to lose a carve). For first timers I don't get bent which approach they pick up as long as they have the ability to adjust their turn shape to avoid obstacles. We can work on rounding out their bag of tricks later. But to your points, most of my first time lessons are still wedge progression because there isn't a perfect fit of gear, terrain and student skills.

 

I'm a little amazed at the thread explosion here.  DTP progressions work. Wedge progressions work. Either approach can fail if taught incorrectly. It really does not matter how the student thinks they are moving their mass to the inside of the new turn. And it does not matter a whole lot what an instructor literally tells a student to do to get that to happen. Sometimes you have to say green to get red to happen.

post #212 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
 

 

Clearly you still dont know what "pivoting" is.  Tail wash is not pivoting. And whether it is active or passive, is largely irrelevant, either count.

 

 

It appears thou, you now concede pivoting does take place - so thats a start.  Spend time figuring out thou, why when the wedge is gone, your students cant link turns!  Hint....I already gave the answer in an earlier post (what does the work?). 

It is not about whether the ski pivots or not, it is whether you need to actively force it to do that with femur rotation.

 

By they way, what is the definition of a ski pivoting around the ski center?

It may sound like a silly question but when the ski moves in a complicated pattern I don't think the answer is obvious.

post #213 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

It is not about whether the ski pivots or not, it is whether you need to actively force it to do that with femur rotation.

 

By they way, what is the definition of a ski pivoting around the ski center?

It may sound like a silly question but when the ski moves in a complicated pattern I don't think the answer is obvious.


Whether its "active" or "passive" is a bunk argument.  Always was.  Pivoting is either a major component of the turn or it isnt...in this case, it seems you all conceded it is.

 

The definition of a ski that pivots under the skier's foot...is "pivoting".  One of the core skills of skiing.  Getting the ski to do that...usually takes some guidance from the instructor, otherwise the pivot point tends to be way forward, making carving later impossible.

post #214 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

It is not about whether the ski pivots or not, it is whether you need to actively force it to do that with femur rotation.

 

By they way, what is the definition of a ski pivoting around the ski center?

It may sound like a silly question but when the ski moves in a complicated pattern I don't think the answer is obvious.

 

I agree Jamt, its not that obvious.  if the ski is edged and weighted, there is no way it pivots around the center frankly speaking. 

post #215 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
 


Whether its "active" or "passive" is a bunk argument.  Always was.  Pivoting is either a major component of the turn or it isnt...in this case, it seems you all conceded it is.

 

The definition of a ski that pivots under the skier's foot...is "pivoting".  One of the core skills of skiing.  Getting the ski to do that...usually takes some guidance from the instructor, otherwise the pivot point tends to be way forward, making carving later impossible.

 

how is that a bunk argument?  You think a ski only pivots if the femurs twist to make it happen?

post #216 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

how is that a bunk argument?  You think a ski only pivots if the femurs twist to make it happen?


So are you now acknowledging that pivoting is infact a major part of the turn?  Yes or no?

post #217 of 225

you have to be more specific what you mean SD.  No I don't think the way you describe pivoting needs to be a major part of every turn.  But the skis do rotate in every turn, even arc'd ones.  They can also rotate too much and fan out.  

 

Its not neccessary to twist your feet to make the skis rotate.

post #218 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

you have to be more specific what you mean SD.  No I don't think the way you describe pivoting needs to be a major part of every turn.  But the skis do rotate in every turn, even arc'd ones.  They can also rotate too much and fan out.  

 

Its not neccessary to twist your feet to make the skis rotate.

:ROTF This actually did make me laugh.

 

C'mon champ - you claim to be a CSIA L2...are you saying you dont know what pivoting is???????????

post #219 of 225

CSIA L2 was a long time ago and its not current....

 

why do you think I don't know what pivoting is?

post #220 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

CSIA L2 was a long time ago and its not current....

 

why do you think I don't know what pivoting is?

 

The definition hasnt changed since I have been around...so unless you did your L2 back in the 70s, I'd say your understanding is fine.  (Even if you did it in the 70s, you are stil likley fine).

 

So...is it pivoting a key part of the turn...yes or no?

post #221 of 225

I have moved on to many other things since those days and forgotten more about CSIA then I remember.  Sorry SD, you will have to describe what you mean now.

post #222 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

I have moved on to many other things since those days and forgotten more about CSIA then I remember.  Sorry SD, you will have to describe what you mean now.


So hang on...you dont even know what pivoting is...yet you argued for 8 pages now...that it doesnt exist?

post #223 of 225

At this point, what I don't know is what the hell you are talking about.  I'm going to bed now, if you want to make sense, please try and I will comment, but you're just talking in circles now.  nite nite.

post #224 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
 


Whether its "active" or "passive" is a bunk argument.  Always was.  Pivoting is either a major component of the turn or it isnt...in this case, it seems you all conceded it is.

 

I dont agree. Passive will keep the upper body in the same direction, active will counter rotate.

 

The definition of a ski that pivots under the skier's foot...is "pivoting".  One of the core skills of skiing.  Getting the ski to do that...usually takes some guidance from the instructor, otherwise the pivot point tends to be way forward, making carving later impossible.

Well you have a moving system so it is not obvious.

In a pivot slip the reference is the straight line that the foot moves, and then it is quite obvious that we (should) have pivoting around the location of the foot.

If you take the same line and push you heels out so that the tips follow the line the ski has rotated around the tips so the pivot point is around the tip.

Fine so far, but what if you actually turn also. Say that you turn so that the end of the tail follows the same same line. Now the skis has pivoted around the tail, but likely this is one of the cases you would say that the pivoting is around the foot.

Or if we take the previous example a bit further and push the heels out at the same time so that instead of the tails following the straight line the feet are following the straight line. 

Hmm, now the skis have rotated around the same point as in the first pivot slip example, but clearly this is not a case you would describe as pivot point under the foot.

post #225 of 225

This thread has moved away from it's original topic and the number of complaints about personal attacks just aren't worth it.

I did post a warning a couple pages back.

Closing now.

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