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Annual Snow Tire Test thread - Page 14

post #391 of 453

ABS while it does increase your stopping distance, it does allow you to steer the car better, of course, you need winter tire traction to steer.

 

Threshold braking is shorter, but...  in the event you need to steer around an obstacle (like another car), or the road curves.... chances of avoiding it is worse.

post #392 of 453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 

ABS while it does increase your stopping distance, it does allow you to steer the car better, of course, you need winter tire traction to steer.

 

Threshold braking is shorter, but...  in the event you need to steer around an obstacle (like another car), or the road curves.... chances of avoiding it is worse.

Apply brake to shift weight to front tires, remove brake as you turn wheel to swerve around obstacle, so that ALL available traction (included added temporary traction due to weight shift) is used to swerve.   Come to think of it, removing your foot from the brake works even if you have the ABS on.  Relying on the ABS to prevent lock up and not taking your foot off the brake when you swerve does not give you full swerving power.

post #393 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post

hum, on pondering one can defeat most ABS by pulling the fuse, not that I'm advocating but should one wish to play in a lot ... 

of course, as I'm not advocating I would also suggest checking with smart folks to ensure nothing detrimental is a result of a pulled fuse : )

One of the nice things about 4x4's once upon a time, or at least some of them, is lock the center diff and it turns ABS off. My Land Cruiser does that, and it is really nice to not have ABS at the point conditions are more severe. Not sure if they still do that since you really, really do not want ABS off-road.

On a newer vehicle, traction control is built upon the ABS platform (electronic brake modulation), and I would guess those things are electronically married at this point. Although I don't know if the systems use different sensors at the wheel hub. I suspect you'd be sent to bed without dinner if you cut out the ABS sensors given today's electronic sensor standard...
post #394 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Apply brake to shift weight to front tires, remove brake as you turn wheel to swerve around obstacle, so that ALL available traction (included added temporary traction due to weight shift) is used to swerve.   Come to think of it, removing your foot from the brake works even if you have the ABS on.  Relying on the ABS to prevent lock up and not taking your foot off the brake when you swerve does not give you full swerving power.

Easier say than done.  Steering and slowing down with threshold braking and steering in between braking, is quite tough to do.

 

In the snow/ice, it doesn't take much to lock the wheel and you don't have much in terms of weight transfer to work with, to pivot the car.  Unless maybe if you had extra traction from studded tires in those scenarios. E-brake turns is easier to do, but you need to get experience with e- brake turns to control the turn properly.  (if you have electronic e- brakes.... forget about e-brake turns... come to think of it, the foot operated e-brakes would be challenging also).

 

WHen you have ABS, and it's pumping the brakes, there's no point of releasing the brake to steer.  That's the advantage of ABS brakes these days.... you have trade-offs to work with.

post #395 of 453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Apply brake to shift weight to front tires, remove brake as you turn wheel to swerve around obstacle, so that ALL available traction (included added temporary traction due to weight shift) is used to swerve.   Come to think of it, removing your foot from the brake works even if you have the ABS on.  Relying on the ABS to prevent lock up and not taking your foot off the brake when you swerve does not give you full swerving power.

Easier say than done.  Steering and slowing down with threshold braking and steering in between braking, is quite tough to do.

 

In the snow/ice, it doesn't take much to lock the wheel and you don't have much in terms of weight transfer to work with, to pivot the car.  Unless maybe if you had extra traction from studded tires in those scenarios. E-brake turns is easier to do, but you need to get experience with e- brake turns to control the turn properly.  (if you have electronic e- brakes.... forget about e-brake turns... come to think of it, the foot operated e-brakes would be challenging also).

 

WHen you have ABS, and it's pumping the brakes, there's no point of releasing the brake to steer.  That's the advantage of ABS brakes these days.... you have trade-offs to work with.


If your ABS is pumping the brakes xxx times per second, some of your traction is being used to stop.  That traction is not available to turn.  You can turn more with your foot completely off the brake pedal.  

 

Just because your tire won't lock up does not mean it won't skid sideways.  It is best to use all the traction you can when you NEED to turn. 

 

Most cars I've had had a very touchy emergency brake, mind you most of 'em had drum brakes on the rear too (pivot point of the shoe makes them prone to grab).  I would not recommend e-brake turns to swerve around obstacle in any case.

post #396 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


If your ABS is pumping the brakes xxx times per second, some of your traction is being used to stop.  That traction is not available to turn.  You can turn more with your foot completely off the brake pedal. 

 

Just because your tire won't lock up does not mean it won't skid sideways.  It is best to use all the traction you can when you NEED to turn.

 

Most cars I've had had a very touchy emergency brake, mind you most of 'em had drum brakes on the rear too (pivot point of the shoe makes them prone to grab).  I would not recommend e-brake turns to swerve around obstacle in any case.

Adding in these days, (and continue the discussion with stability control), the stability control can do a better job then no-braking, as it can selective brake a wheel (even better if the ABS system is 4-channel), to correct a skid.

 

Skidding is from having a traction differential, front to rear, side to side.  You can drive in a straight line, and start to skid without even touching the brakes in the snow.

 

ABS computers can react faster than our brain and foot, so during the fraction of the second it's not braking, you have your traction you NEED to turn.

post #397 of 453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


If your ABS is pumping the brakes xxx times per second, some of your traction is being used to stop.  That traction is not available to turn.  You can turn more with your foot completely off the brake pedal. 

 

Just because your tire won't lock up does not mean it won't skid sideways.  It is best to use all the traction you can when you NEED to turn.

 

Most cars I've had had a very touchy emergency brake, mind you most of 'em had drum brakes on the rear too (pivot point of the shoe makes them prone to grab).  I would not recommend e-brake turns to swerve around obstacle in any case.

Adding in these days, (and continue the discussion with stability control), the stability control can do a better job then no-braking, as it can selective brake a wheel (even better if the ABS system is 4-channel), to correct a skid.

 

Skidding is from having a traction differential, front to rear, side to side.  You can drive in a straight line, and start to skid without even touching the brakes in the snow.

 

ABS computers can react faster than our brain and foot, so during the fraction of the second it's not braking, you have your traction you NEED to turn.


Computers cannot overcome the laws of physics.  Best not try to stop and turn at the same time if what you really want to do is turn.

post #398 of 453
Anyone tried the Yokohama ice guard IG51v?
post #399 of 453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

Anyone tried the Yokohama ice guard IG51v?


Haven't tried them, but they were reviewed by the APA here  http://www.apa.ca/WinterTires2014-SUVs.asp

post #400 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 


If your ABS is pumping the brakes xxx times per second, some of your traction is being used to stop.  That traction is not available to turn.  You can turn more with your foot completely off the brake pedal. 

Just because your tire won't lock up does not mean it won't skid sideways.  It is best to use all the traction you can when you NEED to turn.

Most cars I've had had a very touchy emergency brake, mind you most of 'em had drum brakes on the rear too (pivot point of the shoe makes them prone to grab).  I would not recommend e-brake turns to swerve around obstacle in any case.
Adding in these days, (and continue the discussion with stability control), the stability control can do a better job then no-braking, as it can selective brake a wheel (even better if the ABS system is 4-channel), to correct a skid.

Skidding is from having a traction differential, front to rear, side to side.  You can drive in a straight line, and start to skid without even touching the brakes in the snow.

ABS computers can react faster than our brain and foot, so during the fraction of the second it's not braking, you have your traction you NEED to turn.

Until they fail, and they act up more than you think. I like it better that I have control, rely on the car and you get sloppy when it matters most along with the fact that you exercise less caution when required.
post #401 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post

Adding in these days, (and continue the discussion with stability control), the stability control can do a better job then no-braking, as it can selective brake a wheel (even better if the ABS system is 4-channel), to correct a skid.

Skidding is from having a traction differential, front to rear, side to side.  You can drive in a straight line, and start to skid without even touching the brakes in the snow.

ABS computers can react faster than our brain and foot, so during the fraction of the second it's not braking, you have your traction you NEED to turn.

This gets back to tire designs integrating with electronic systems. A really good tire should gain traction as it slips by packing snow in the right way, even just small amounts on icy surfaces. If you have that type of tire, ABS actually defeats the traction of the tire.

When a tire is designed to work with ABS, getting back to breakaway threshold, once it goes the ABS system is now attempting to address traction that is not being quickly regained. This is why I won't run studless can winter tires. Too many breakaway failures, ABS happily pumping away.

I know you've seen me post this before that I took last year, comparing a 2007 Nissan Quest with studded winter tires and 1995 Land Cruiser. It is slick - the Quest could barely get back up this hill (I won't post that vid again). First is the Quest, and you can tell when ABS engages (it slips immediately). Second is the Cruiser, and definitely obvious when ABS engages, but admittedly that is also a not so tight recirculating ball steering system.

After that it is all Cruiser, ABS off, mashing the throttle and the brakes. Look at the tire track as I back up at the very end. The tire has consolidated a little bit of powder on top of the ice, and what happens from the driver's perspective is the slide slows, and them comes to a quick reassuring thunk once the tire pulls in enough of that powder surface. The winter tires never do that. The studs create about an equal level of bite, but without them all of the studless winter tires I have used will more or less keep on going until friction, gradient, or grippier conditions prevail.

You can steer in a controlled slide with a little bit of throttle input when the vehicle is actually coming to a stop. I get that this is too much of an ask for how we train drivers, but I don't think last drivers will steer around an accelerating ABS engagement, either. So it is either a tire designed for traction in the absence of electronic controls or studs for me, because those are the only two things that overcome threshold breakaway problems in modern systems.
post #402 of 453
For what I mean about a tire designed for traction in the absence of electronic systems, here's a Contour POV aimed directly at the tire.

First part is soapy snow on dirt, then packed powder and icy sections on dirt, then mixed road conditions. It is really interesting to see the tire go through transitions of holding snow and shedding it as conditions change. Center diff is locked, which is akin to having stability controls at speed.

The last bit I head up a 7% or so grade to a cul-de-sac with about 10" deep wind blown snow on the passenger side but only 2-3" on the driver's side. Gun it coming through the cul-de-sac, and accelerate downhill with the deeper snow on driver's side. I stop as fast as I can on the downhill as if I had a stop sign at that intersection (I don't). Not pumping brakes here, just working threshold tire feedback with brake pressure @ about 25 mph, 7% grade. ABS is off here.

Obviously people can draw their own conclusions as to what truly constitutes good traction and predictable performance. ABS will take away the ability to do what you see in that vid, which includes an intentional shortest possible distance slide at the end.
post #403 of 453
ABS doesn't engage until it detects lock or near lock of brakes via the wheel speed sensor vs the actual speed.

When you drive in the summer time, you don't see the ABS kick in often due to increased friction between the asphalt/concrete and your tire.

I know studded tires work better going down a packed snow hill... Not everyone lives in an area that allows for studded tires.


Sent from my iPhone. There may be horrible grammar and misspelling involved
post #404 of 453

Studs are obsolete, unless you live where the pavement is always ice-covered. A good winter tire lasts 20-30k miles; the studs turn into ball bearings after 10k. Get a premium winter tire, studless or not, and forego the metal.

post #405 of 453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineImages View Post
 

Studs are obsolete, unless you live where the pavement is always ice-covered. A good winter tire lasts 20-30k miles; the studs turn into ball bearings after 10k. Get a premium winter tire, studless or not, and forego the metal.


Studs are not obsolete.   The road does not need to be always ice-covered, just ice-covered when you want to drive on it.  A good studded tire, like the Hakkapallita 7s we have on one of our work vehicles will not have the studs turn to ball bearing s after 10k.  Traction on bare pavement is adequate too.  Studdless tires will not maintain their ice grip at cold (sub 0 F) temperatures.

post #406 of 453

What fun open forums are; we can disagree safely.

 

The Hakkas are great. Studs are not.

 

I've been studying this for 45 years, drove 600k miles in that time (including 1500+ ski days) have several friends in the tire biz, see way too many half-worn tires with round studs, and have considered studs obsolete since buying my first studless Goodyear F32 (the first hydrophilic tire) in the mid-80s. Tire shops sell them because folks request them.

 

I also have a few friends who insist on studs because they grew up on them, and others who have lived a lifetime as skiers but insist they do not need snow tires.  Reason does not always prevail.

 

Now on my fifth set (including wifey's car) the Michelin X-Ice stick like glue well below 0 degrees F. 

 

I also no longer ski on Cubco bindings or use Windows XP.;)

post #407 of 453
Thread Starter 

It would sure be boring if we all had the same opinion:).  

 

Also testing for 40 years and hundreds of thousands of winter miles.  My Internet Penis is

THIS............. BIG! ;)

 

On a serious note, the current winter tires on my car are studdless Hakka R2, but I have to admit the Hakka 7s work better on ice, especially when it's cold.  

 

Previous personal winter tires: X-ice III (two sets, one on each of two cars), X-ice II, Latitude X-ice II, Latitude X-ice.

Also have recently driven about a dozen work vehicles with various tires from Firestone, General, Goodyear, Bridgestone, Cooper, BFG and Handkook.

 

Also, the good non-studded winter tires are good, just not as good as the good studded tires.  You don't have to take my word for it; https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi968nU36nRAhWW2YMKHRGJBrUQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftekniikanmaailma.fi%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F07%2Ftm_17_2016_english.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHzolXLeBTZebLdPHmudMnVAujmrw&cad=rja

 

 

 

 

post #408 of 453

Yes, its true, mine is smaller. So it goes. Thanks for sharing.

 

It's a great study; thanks for posting it. I'd love to see them perform the same test on half-worn tires.

 

If only we all could enjoy the traction of a new tire (and its studs) for the whole tire life. I'd probably be an adherent if I had the luxury of buying new tires each winter.  These are the set I took off after 27k miles and sold in minutes on CL for $150.  Life-cycle cost analysis: unbeatable. From Vredesteins to Goodyears to Yokos to Michelins, none I've owned lasted anywhere near as long, and none but the Michelins were worth a dime after 2 seasons.

 

Gotta go wax now; tomorrow's a Back Bowls day, and I'd better get on the road by 6AM. The highway's gonna close for sure once the tireless hit I-70.

post #409 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 

Easier say than done.  Steering and slowing down with threshold braking and steering in between braking, is quite tough to do.

 

I think this is often forgotten.  All the academic talk of threshold braking and turning while finding that limit goes out the window when you cross the centreline and the 18 wheeler is in your crosshairs.  99% of people would be hard-pressed to match ABS braking on most surfaces under duress of any kind.  It's like Mike Tyson says..everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face..

post #410 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineImages View Post
 

I also no longer ski on Cubco bindings or use Windows XP.;)

 

XP was pretty good...nevermind..

post #411 of 453

Thanks Scott.

 

Yes, I loved XP until Win7, which they'll pry from my dead hands when they take away the keys to my 1999 4runner with its 16" wheels, two locking diffs and 70-series snow tires.

 

PS thanks for the thumbs-up on the Michelins.  I was worried someone would think I shill for Michelin.  My first post was about liking the Knee Binding, and it raised a firestorm, including folks sure I worked for them. Mebbe I'm getting less abrasive?

post #412 of 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineImages View Post
 

Thanks Scott.

 

Yes, I loved XP until Win7, which they'll pry from my dead hands when they take away the keys to my 1999 4runner with its 16" wheels, two locking diffs and 70-series snow tires.

 

PS thanks for the thumbs-up on the Michelins.  I was worried someone would think I shill for Michelin.  My first post was about liking the Knee Binding, and it raised a firestorm, including folks sure I worked for them. Mebbe I'm getting less abrasive?


I think just recognizing that sometimes there isn't a singular correct answer provides some middle ground.  Especially in tires!  :D  Some like some things, others like other things.  It's somewhat subjective and different opinions are ok.  Some people can't handle that but if you can, I think people can respect that.  I've actually warmed up to Windows 10..but I wish the Windows 8 step had never happened..much like Vista.  XP I think was quite a solid rock for IT folks to hold onto.  Again..different strokes.  :)

post #413 of 453

@AlpineImages

 

Having studied highway design, studs are not obsolete and can actually reduce road maintenance cost along with provide great safety for the travelling public.  Salt impacts environment, health and road bed (frost heaved roads), Studs abrade the road surface slightly in dry non icy conditions, however studies have already shown that even if 50% of the cars on the road left on the studs year round, the road surface would be conditioned (polish from heavy traffic) to keep the adhesion specs.  Wear would be less than governments doing it on an annual basis and there would be ZERO cost for this along with reduced maintenance due to frost heave, not to mention the positive health effects and reduced environmental impact.

 

Modern stud are tiny and just a bit bigger than the largest stone in your tire tread.

 

Unfortunately where I live in Southern Ontario they are not allowed, so I carry and use tire chains if required (and yes I have used them in Toronto in front of police with their blessing) as they are legal if used correctly.

 

As to the history of snow tires, all season tires and most importantly the winter tires you use today, I posted this several years back on one or two occasions in different threads.

post #414 of 453

Here's an interesting study from Oregon..

https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/COMM/Documents/StuddedTireReport2014.pdf

 

Flip to page 57 for the summary.  Basically, studless tires are basically the equal or superior to studded in almost all conditions save sheet ice.  They quantify the damage caused by studs in terms of dollar value and by corollary they can conclude there IS damage.

post #415 of 453

Hi Old Schooler (we of similar schooling, no doubt). Ahhh. If only...

 

I am a strong believer in pragmatism, the study of what actually occurs despite what we engineer or design to be.

 

In Colorado, CDOT still attempts social engineering (e.g. our new 'Traction Law', which is neither understood nor enforced). When that fails, because folks cannot afford winter tires or believe their cars superb without them, they salt the daylights out of the roads.  Magnesium chloride becoming too expensive in this tax-averse state, they've now begin to use brine solution, which is even more corrosive.  They combine those salts with gravel, not sand.  These salts rots exterior chrome, the gravel pounds paint senseless, and anyone wanting their shiny new car to stay that way better keep it garaged. I buy a new windshield annually, new headlights every 4 years, and have long since stopped weeping about my paintless front end. The price of driving to ski on snow days, which I sacrifice my car to do.

 

Every year, our major highways get repaved.  I suspect the polishing effect you describe involves concrete roadways, of which we have few. Most are asphalt. They crack, they heave, they split, they are poorly paved to begin with, the lane markings disappear quickly, and each year the road miles ignored by repaving increase.  The luxury of studs polishing our pavement would be a fantasy here.  First, a small number of drivers own any winter tires.  Second, few of them use studs.  Third, the asphalt is very short-lived.  Fourth, we add drivers annually much faster than lane miles. So the 50% theoretical you propose cannot occur.  And speaking of costs, as you do, the destruction of our vehicles from salting is a tax far more costly than the road damage, just disguised.  When government ruins cars of well-prepared drivers to allow transit of inadequate ones, that is a tax.

 

Next, look at the socioeconomic profile of our drivers. Many are cash-strapped with soaring housing and medical costs, and cannot afford basic car maintenance, let alone good tires. They still drive. 50% are under or uninsured. Marketing assures them that cars drive themselves.  Distractions from phone addiction is epidemic. Few adopt my mantra: drive like your life depends on it.

 

I'd love it if: 

 

...CDOT only plowed the roads, no sand, no salts, driver be prepared or stay home,

 

...everyone had winter tires, studded or not.  Heck, even if they owned 4WD with good all-season tires, 

 

...a winter driving class was mandatory before getting licensed,

 

...folks merged right after passing on multi-lane highways, rather than block the passing lane white knuckled and force capable drivers to pass on the right,

 

...trucks chain up, maintain and manage their braking systems, and keep right,

 

...rental car agencies rent cars with winter tires (its a horror what they send our flatland visitors out on the roads with!)

 

...etc.

 

But let's get real. Snow driving is a dying art, greed dictates what we are sold to drive, and ridiculously large wheels on new cars make tire maintenance un-affordable. The best we as individuals can do is to maintain our own, and try to educate the rest - the purpose of these forums perhaps. So while we might debate the nuances of whether studs last the life of the tire or provide marginal  benefits, its much less important than educating all drivers about their responsibilities to maintain a driveable car.

 

I personally try to convert at least a few dozen folks each year to buying snows, or hitching a ride with a good and well equipped driver if they want to ski here. You Canadians live with more ice than we do, hopefully the education process is less onerous for you.  Here, it's a slowly losing battle.  On any given powder day, closure of our major artery to the ski resorts (I-70) is a crapshoot.

 

When there were far fewer humans here, simple cars, no cell phones, and drivers education in schools, I never thought twice about making it home from skiing.  Now, its a casino gamble.

 

Studs are not the problem.  Ignorance is.

 

You know this, of course, because we're old-school, and in my old school, they taught driving!

post #416 of 453

@AlpineImages: great post.  Couldn't agree more with you about CDOT and underprepared drivers.  I believe I'm now on CDOT's watch list, having roundly chastised them and our dear governor's office about salt use.  When I told CDOT I'd be most grateful if they'd spend more time plowing than thinking of ways to avoid plowing I was informed, most politely, that CDOT merely purchases the brine, and "spends no time mixing it."  Really!?  I've long advocated ticketing those who get in accidents, or slow traffic, because they refuse to invest in decent snow tires, in an amount equal to the cost of purchasing and mounting the snows, with such ticket removed from one's driving record upon presentation of a receipt evidencing the purchase and mounting of the snow tires.  Too practical, I suppose, to go anywhere.

post #417 of 453

@DOCEVG Since we share a mutual love of CDOT, whad'ya think of the wonderful new express lane on EB I-70, that made a mess for over a year in construction, will never be open during a snow event, but perhaps made all traffic EB on that stretch more dangerous by removing the shoulder on the right, making the shoulder illegal on the left, and all lanes narrower all the time? Tell me something good, please.

 

I was involved with the design team as an outside advisor during that fiasco, and ultimately logic had no place at the table.

 

Formerly, working for DRCOG, I found out that all CDOTs engineers are marginalized whenever a stupider idea surfaces.

 

Now they want to hasten the demise of my beloved rust-bucket with a brine of unknown origin.  Do these people actually drive cars?

post #418 of 453
Let me be clear studs do not polish, but the very opposite.

Road failure occurred because the road bed is moisture saturated with salt ladden water and when flash frozen during high wind cold conditions cause problems. Bribe laden road slush.

The study I refer to was done by the MTO in 1201 Wilson Ave, Toronto about 20-25 years back (give or take).

Winter tires started because of PRESALTING which started about 35 years ago. All Seasons stopped working because of the superchilled conditions by the road slush hence the development of Winters.

Studs which everyone fears are those of the 50 and 60's, modern stiuds are have changed. What's even better is Winters with studs, imagine that!!

Worse driving is caused by trust in ABS and ESP systems which are marketed as the be all end all of driving woes. Drivers are lead to believe that they can make no error as the systems will protect you. Wrong! They only help when you drive the way you should for given conditions by givening you an added safety margin when you make a slight error.

One other thing Old style snow or Mud and Snow tires do not work well in the brine slush, however , those tires combined with studs do better than non studded Winters..

The big thing is understand limits for given condition and having the experience to react correctly when errors are made. They will be made, will you react correctly.

As to training years ago it was common place to go play carefully in an empty lot on a snow covered day, Now get caught doing this and you could face fines or charges. Drivers are expected to know without experience, sad, very sad.
Edited by oldschoolskier - 1/4/17 at 9:18pm
post #419 of 453
I think all vehicles should have to be pre-certified to enter travel in the mountains during restricted times. The entire system could be done electronically, just like the toll lanes.

As for studs, they make a huge difference on 2WD vehicles attempting to start on a decent grade from a stop, which is where so many closures start their cascade. Have to buy tires every year? Well, you are bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Personally, I see zero reason for pure winter tires if you have a good drivetrain (more than pseudo electronic AWD). Compound advances mean you can get 50K and have tires that perform very well at -20F without wearing out in summer. More of these tires are flooding the market each year. Heck, Clear Creek County patrol use one of them (the GY Duratrac) and they are dead center of the I-70 ice zone.

I fully agree with plowing only. I don't get the obsession with removing every bit of snow chemically. Snow has perfectly good traction - if you can't drive on it you shouldn't be licensed to drive in high mountains.
post #420 of 453
2WD, ski country, and tire chains no problem.
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