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Minimum age to teach direct to parallel

post #1 of 50
Thread Starter 

I posted this on the PMTS website a couple weeks ago, but haven't heard back yet (I really respect Harb and his work).

 

What is the minimum age to teach PMTS as opposed to traditional methods for kids?  I can't imagine teaching a 3 year old to roll their little toe edge to turn. When our son was 2 1/2 I hooked his ski tips together with an edgie wedgie just so he could get out on the mountain.

 

He stemmed his turns until he was about 9, then just switched over to carving all on his own.

I ask this question since I plan to teach skiing this winter. It's easy to get kids on the hill quickly with an edgie wedgie, and they have fun almost right away. It's just not the ideal way for the long term.

post #2 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestPete View Post
 

I posted this on the PMTS website a couple weeks ago, but haven't heard back yet (I really respect Harb and his work).

 

What is the minimum age to teach PMTS as opposed to traditional methods for kids?  I can't imagine teaching a 3 year old to roll their little toe edge to turn. When our son was 2 1/2 I hooked his ski tips together with an edgie wedgie just so he could get out on the mountain.

 

He stemmed his turns until he was about 9, then just switched over to carving all on his own.

I ask this question since I plan to teach skiing this winter. It's easy to get kids on the hill quickly with an edgie wedgie, and they have fun almost right away. It's just not the ideal way for the long term.

 

Why don't we let one of your potential students answer:

 

 

 

 

Teach them to have fun...in whatever form...the rest will follow.  Kids who learn to love skiing, get good at.  Kids who hate skiing, wont.  Teaching them to love skiing is your #1 job.

post #3 of 50
No edgy wedgies... Try a hoola hoop or hockey stick. smile.gif Seriously though, if I paid and instructor and they pulled out a set of edgy wedgies, the lesson would be over and money refunded.
post #4 of 50
Thread Starter 

Yeah, the hoola hoop is a good idea.

 

Our son's very first lesson was at Kinder-Hut in Breck -- he was 2 1/2.  I think they had all the kids on edgie wedgies. Worked pretty well though with their mini fenced in slope and super small magic carpet. The kids just kept making laps for about 20 minutes, then they would go in and play.

 

He cried the whole time so I ended up teaching him.

post #5 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

No edgy wedgies... Try a hoola hoop or hockey stick. smile.gif Seriously though, if I paid and instructor and they pulled out a set of edgy wedgies, the lesson would be over and money refunded.

I used to carry a set of edge wedgie's in my pocket just in case I got that kid who absolutely couldn't keep the tips in some form of togetherness.  I never used them. 

I think I may still have them in my boot bag, not sure, haven't thought about them in a looooong time. 

post #6 of 50
IMO, edgy wedgies are for parents who are over terraining their kids. My guy is 3. There will be no edgy wedgies.
post #7 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

IMO, edgy wedgies are for parents who are over terraining their kids. My guy is 3. There will be no edgy wedgies.

Has he started yet?

post #8 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

IMO, edgy wedgies are for parents who are over terraining their kids. My guy is 3. There will be no edgy wedgies.

I was advised to have some on me.  Like I said, I never used them.  I really think, if a kid needs edgie wedgies its a kid who's not ready to learn to ski. 

post #9 of 50
We'll give it a whirl this year. He might be ready, he might not. Snow angels and snowmen are probably more important. He loves going up the gondola though!smile.gif
post #10 of 50

I think "edgie-wedgies" have their place.  I certainly agree they shouldn't be your "go-to", but the reality of instructing often means groups of 6 or more kids...and an edgie-wedgie might be critical to keeping that one child with the group....it might only take a few runs with it, or a few days.  Either way, if it works....I cant see any lasting issues.

post #11 of 50

My friend taught their daughter to ski(sort of) when she was 2. 

They started on a mild slope at home one pushing her off and the other parent catching her.

The catching parent would step to the side occasionally, and she'd automatically start to turn toward him. 

I hope this video comes through okay. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=120825110017&set=vb.830505017&type=3&theater

 

She's almost 7 now and loves to ski!

post #12 of 50

Hockey stick! :)

 

post #13 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
 

My friend taught their daughter to ski(sort of) when she was 2. 

They started on a mild slope at home one pushing her off and the other parent catching her.

The catching parent would step to the side occasionally, and she'd automatically start to turn toward him. 

I hope this video comes through okay. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=120825110017&set=vb.830505017&type=3&theater

 

She's almost 7 now and loves to ski!

Nope - video didn't come through.

 

I also used a harness for a very short time with our son when he was a toddler. I had all sorts of advice and criticism -- it worked for us though. I always kept some slack in it so my son did all the work. It just made me/and him more comfortable that I could stop him if he took off out of control.  We're talking 2 1/2 to 3 years of age. After a few runs then he told me he didn't need it any more and all was good. Same with the edgie wedgie. And today at 15 he is a really good skier.

post #14 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 

Hockey stick! :)

 

 

Kind of the same concept as this product from Apple Rise Sports. I bought various devices from this company -- just not this particular one.

 

http://www.kid-ski.com/

 

Again, I am sure there will be some debate, but these products worked for us.

 

 

 

This is the best thing I ever bought to help kids.  I still use it with my nephews and nieces.

post #15 of 50

Pfft - I've seen a 9 month old on skis. Kid-ski! RSN got the kid on film too.

 

Oops beat me to it. Hmm that one looks pretty tiny....

post #16 of 50

Yeah, wedgie and harness when he was four -- mostly to calm the parents.  Now, at 13, he's all over the mountain.

post #17 of 50

Nothing wrong with an edge wedge for a 3 year old.  They started my kid out on them and he was skiing blues within his first week.

post #18 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

Pfft - I've seen a 9 month old on skis. Kid-ski! RSN got the kid on film too.

 

 

Oops beat me to it. Hmm that one looks pretty tiny....

 

pfft - my kid was waxing skis at 9 months...:D

post #19 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestPete View Post
 

I posted this on the PMTS website a couple weeks ago, but haven't heard back yet (I really respect Harb and his work).

 

What is the minimum age to teach PMTS as opposed to traditional methods for kids?  I can't imagine teaching a 3 year old to roll their little toe edge to turn. When our son was 2 1/2 I hooked his ski tips together with an edgie wedgie just so he could get out on the mountain.

 

 

I'm not sure where you posted, but I'm not seeing your question anywhere on that forum.  The Primary Movements Teaching System sub-forum would be the place to post that sort of question.  Additionally, this google search may turn up information you'd find useful.  Sorry I don't have a more direct answer for you; I don't pay much attention to that sort of thing, since I don't have any kids. :)

post #20 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoisvert View Post
 

 

I'm not sure where you posted, but I'm not seeing your question anywhere on that forum.  The Primary Movements Teaching System sub-forum would be the place to post that sort of question.  Additionally, this google search may turn up information you'd find useful.  Sorry I don't have a more direct answer for you; I don't pay much attention to that sort of thing, since I don't have any kids. :)

 

I actually emailed Harb directly.  Thanks -- some good info on the links.

post #21 of 50

Pete, are you interested in a direct to parallel teaching approach, or the brand-name teaching system?  My guess is if you have to ask the question posed in this thread, it's the former.

post #22 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestPete View Post

I ask this question since I plan to teach skiing this winter. It's easy to get kids on the hill quickly with an edgie wedgie, and they have fun almost right away. It's just not the ideal way for the long term.

Where will you be teaching, Pete? You might ask the ski school how it wants you to teach.
post #23 of 50

Little ones who have never skied can learn to make their first turns parallel, if you teach them to do that.  It's getting kids out of the wedge after a season or two of wedge skiing that's an issue.  But when those wedgers grow up they won't still be in a wedge.  It's not the end of the world.  They'll eventually switch over when it becomes important to them.

 

You don't need a PMTS progression to teach a 3-4-5 year old to ski parallel.  Just ski backwards in front of them and have them ski to you.  If they are wobbly you can lean forward and hold their knees as the two of you ski down.  Keep at it until it kicks in.  Take a break and ski some more!

 

But taking a group of 5-7 year olds who all ski in a wedge and converting them to parallel skiing in a morning or even a day --- good luck with that, using any progression.  Your ski school will have advice on how to teach kids.  And they will most likely allow you to shadow others to see how they deal with kids.  Go with the flow, and have a great time.  It's exhilarating to teach skiing.  Welcome to the culture!

post #24 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


Where will you be teaching, Pete? You might ask the ski school how it wants you to teach.

 

I am doing freelance design work from home for an ad agency in Newport Beach. It comes in somewhat sporadically -- last week I worked 10 hours a day, this week nothing so far. I figured I would also teach skiing part time to fill in the slow periods. Mt. Crescent, IA is only 20 minutes from my house and is open 6 days a week. Pretty much a learning area, they always have need for instructors.

 

Best part is I can be outside all winter. :D  I get pretty fried sitting behind a computer all of the time.

 

post #25 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
 

Pete, are you interested in a direct to parallel teaching approach, or the brand-name teaching system?  My guess is if you have to ask the question posed in this thread, it's the former.

 

I thought they were one and the same -- what is the difference?

post #26 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestPete View Post
 

 

I thought they were one and the same -- what is the difference?


There are any number of direct to parallel approaches, but PMTS is a proprietary system with its own standards and its own terminology.  My bet is that if you are not PMTS certified, HH will try to sue you if you attempt to teach it. It is also completely technique based.  In my experience, children under the age of about 30 are completely uninterested in technique, so PMTS is not appropriate for children, IMO.

From your various questions, it appears you are new to ski teaching, and not familiar with some of the issues and concerns that are common among ski instructors. My best advice to you is to follow the lead of the trainers at your ski school, learn as much as you can, and enjoy the experience.

 

BK   

post #27 of 50
CSIA has some nice direct to parallel vids. They could easily be adjusted to many kids, but as others have said, with the real little ones, it's about fun... You kind of trick them into skiing. smile.gif
post #28 of 50

Ah  = Thank You Bode for mentioning common issues and concerns. Speaking of which....

 

Moderator note:

Epicski has made the editorial decision to let certain issues with certain proprietary teaching systems be best discussed in forums dedicated to the proprietary teaching systems. Since the intent of the thread is focused on direct to parallel in general, the moderator team has decided to change the thread title to reflect this and attempt to avoid the issues that discussions about a certain proprietary teaching system typically create.

 

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

post #29 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

Ah  = Thank You Bode for mentioning common issues and concerns. Speaking of which....

 

Moderator note:

Epicski has made the editorial decision to let certain issues with certain proprietary teaching systems be best discussed in forums dedicated to the proprietary teaching systems. Since the intent of the thread is focused on direct to parallel in general, the moderator team has decided to change the thread title to reflect this and attempt to avoid the issues that discussions about a certain proprietary teaching system typically create.

 

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Works for me.

post #30 of 50

And now to answer the OP questions directly...

 

There is no minimum age for using a direct to parallel approach as opposed to a wedge based teaching progression. You will most likely find that your ski school has standards (or at least suggestion) for teaching first timers and children. Some in the industry have very strong negative opinions about edgie-wedgies. Some don't. Some have strong opinions about direct to parallel (either positive or negative). Some don't.

 

Children grow from the center out. My experience with first timer "little littles" (around 3 and under) is that they have not grown enough to make effective braking wedges with or without edgie wedgies. For slope angles and conditions typically found at resorts, there's not a lot of terrain available where little littles have enough directional/edge angle control to be let loose without some form of outside speed control available (e.g. harnesses, kid-ski, hoops or hands on assistance from a parent or instructor. Once they get big enough/coordinated enough, controlling enough speed through directional change becomes possible. At that point choice of teaching progression should depend on a student's balance skills, the gear they are on, the conditions du jour and the available terrain (but many resorts make the choice for their instructors). Edgie wedgies can work for a wedge progression. In my experience, hands on teaching techniques like backward skiing in front of the child using their hands touching your palms to slow down and your hands grabbing their ski tips to control wedge shape/position is more effective than edgie wedgies.

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