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1st day of the season... did I forget how to ski??? - Page 3

post #61 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

OK.  So here is what I'm skiing:

 

- Skis... Rossi Experience 88, 186cm.  Skied them about 30x last year.  Love the skis.

- Boots... Dodge Boots, 315cm.  Custom footbed.  Neutral stance. 


I'm not normally a backseat skier.  However, I found myself skiing backseat a lot last weekend and having difficulty carving my turns.  Now, the conditions were as bad as you could possibly imagine for this time of year.  Essentially just rockhard ice with a week bit of snow on top.  Still, I've skied really bad conditions before and skied them well. 

 

I'm going to go to my bootfitter and tell him the problem and hope that he can correct it.  I love my boots.  When I got them in January they literally helped boost my skiing ability by an appreciable measure.  So I don't think it's the boot.  I'm thinking it maybe me but I'll see what the bootfitter says.


Bill

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

Well, today I got my 2nd day of skiing in.  It was MUCH better than the first.  I'm thinking that I should be in a much better place by December.  Now, if I could just make my legs snap magically into shape, I'd be good to go.  My quads were KILLING me today!!!

 

Bill

 

Glad to hear that your 2nd day of skiing was MUCH better than your first. But the fact that you're quads were "KILLING" you, still leads me to believe there is a significant error in your net ski/binding/boot stance.

 

If you review my original questions and your answers above, you'll realize that you omitted a VERY important piece of equipment info, namely, what exact BINDING model are you skiing on? The reason this is important is because of varying differences between binding toe and heel heights, often referred to as the "delta" or "ramp" effect of your binding. In essence, how much the binding is tilting your entire boot forward (or backward), relative to the running surface of your Rossi ski.

 

Since accurately identifying a binding model with all parts can be difficult for the average skier (beyond brand and whatever name or numbers you can read), I'd like to suggest that you take some up-close photos (top, side and perspective views) of your toe unit, heel unit and overall toe and heel set up. The closer the better, including a clear shot of your toe and/or heel tension setting windows. If you shoot and post these at your convenience, I'll be able to identify the "ramp" effect of your binding and how close that is to what others are choosing with your given boot model and size. It would also be helpful if you're willing to share a couple front, side and rear shot views of your feet and lower legs from the knee down, standing on a hard, flat surface. At the very least, you may become famous on Epicski for posting such photos!

 

Another thing you didn't mention was whether you were able to visit your boot fitter as planned and if so, did he make any adjustments between your 1st and 2nd day of skiing?

 

At least know, the more you're willing to share, the more some of us are in a position to help.

post #62 of 80

Got out at Loon this weekend for about 3 hours.they did not have a lot open, but enough to make some turns and shake off the cob webs. I felt great pretty much right out of the gate. The skating and rollerbalding along with the use of a slant board and many single legged exercises I did all summer really helped. Still loving my Speed courses.

post #63 of 80
Thread Starter 

Going to hit Killington on Saturday after I meet with the guys at Dodge Boot Co. who will assess my stance and adjust my boots so my quads don't kill me anymore.

post #64 of 80

Hit Wolf Creek last weekend.  Two top to bottom runs and I was back.  I think I did over 20k vert the first day thanks to the new high speed quad.  I'm still sore but I was ripping it like it was March.  Feels great to get a skiing fix, nothing compares. 

post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by core2 View Post
 

Hit Wolf Creek last weekend.  Two top to bottom runs and I was back.  I think I did over 20k vert the first day thanks to the new high speed quad.  I'm still sore but I was ripping it like it was March.  Feels great to get a skiing fix, nothing compares. 

 

I hear that- I did 6 laps in about an hour. Had to move over to Bonanza to have a longer lift ride to give my feet time to rest (breaking in liners).

post #66 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

Going to hit Killington on Saturday after I meet with the guys at Dodge Boot Co. who will assess my stance and adjust my boots so my quads don't kill me anymore.

 

Remember, all gear components that begin with the letter "B" affect your BALANCE greatly. Have the guys at Dodge also measure your stand height difference at the toe and heel of your binding and consider testing something different. Easy as stepping into your skis with several business cards (approx. 0.25mm each) under your toe or heel contact points to compare. Report back if you desire further guidance in the ways of The Force.

post #67 of 80
Thread Starter 

Thanks SBJ.  I'll report back this weekend.

 

Bill

post #68 of 80

May the Force be with you this weekend.

post #69 of 80
Thread Starter 

So... I went out to Essex VT and met with Bill Doble yesterday.  First of all, let me say how COOL it was to see the Dodge ski operation for myself.  When I think of American ingenuity, I now think of the Dodge Boot guys.  Bill Doble swapped out my 27.5 liner with a 28.5 liner.  MUCH more comfortable now.  Wish the guys who fit me thought of this initially.  Bill then swapped out the 0 degree bushings with a 3 degree bushing on one boot and a 2 degree bushing on the other.  This brought me into a much more upright position.  Bill also added a shim to the toe of both boots, which combined with my ramp angle on my bindings, got me more upright.  Prior to doing this, Bill put me on a really cool contraption that was like a combination of weeble wobbles, my skis and an accelerometer.  The accelerometer was hooked up to his computer with their proprietary software that measured my edge angle at different skiing positions.  Pretty cool piece of technology.


So... what were the results?  Muscle fatigue due to too much forward lean ELIMINATED.  No more quad fatigue after 15 turns.  I was able to ski non-stop for 4 hours (with the occasional on slope break) w/o severe muscle fatigue.  For the first time, I was able to ski normally.  It was GREAT.  Next, my skiing was markedly improved; especially in the bumps.  All of this was due to 2 factors, elimination of the severe forward lean and more comfort in the boot.  I'm back to where I was last year but without the quad exhaustion that I as suffering from every 10-20 turns.  What a difference!

 

So, long story short, the 4 hour drive was totally worth it.  I even got a full afternoon of skiing at Killington as a bonus.  Overall, it was a great day of skiing and an even better and unique opportunity to meet Bill Doble and see the Dodge Boot operation (I even got to see the next evolution of ski boot technology they're working on and I must say, it is amazing) as well as getting my boot issue fixed.  Thanks Bill!!!

post #70 of 80

Hey sugarloafer, sorry but that's all wrong, you should not feel good about this.  The object is not to ski well or to be comfortable, it is to struggle and constantly question your own abilities.  Well at least that's what I've always thought. :D

post #71 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

Well, today I got my 2nd day of skiing in.  It was MUCH better than the first.  I'm thinking that I should be in a much better place by December.  Now, if I could just make my legs snap magically into shape, I'd be good to go.  My quads were KILLING me today!!!

 

Bill

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

Going to hit Killington on Saturday after I meet with the guys at Dodge Boot Co. who will assess my stance and adjust my boots so my quads don't kill me anymore.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

So... I went out to Essex VT and met with Bill Doble yesterday.  First of all, let me say how COOL it was to see the Dodge ski operation for myself.  When I think of American ingenuity, I now think of the Dodge Boot guys.  Bill Doble swapped out my 27.5 liner with a 28.5 liner.  MUCH more comfortable now.  Wish the guys who fit me thought of this initially.  Bill then swapped out the 0 degree bushings with a 3 degree bushing on one boot and a 2 degree bushing on the other.  This brought me into a much more upright position.  Bill also added a shim to the toe of both boots, which combined with my ramp angle on my bindings, got me more upright.  Prior to doing this, Bill put me on a really cool contraption that was like a combination of weeble wobbles, my skis and an accelerometer.  The accelerometer was hooked up to his computer with their proprietary software that measured my edge angle at different skiing positions.  Pretty cool piece of technology.


So... what were the results?  Muscle fatigue due to too much forward lean ELIMINATED.  No more quad fatigue after 15 turns.  I was able to ski non-stop for 4 hours (with the occasional on slope break) w/o severe muscle fatigue.  For the first time, I was able to ski normally.  It was GREAT.  Next, my skiing was markedly improved; especially in the bumps.  All of this was due to 2 factors, elimination of the severe forward lean and more comfort in the boot.  I'm back to where I was last year but without the quad exhaustion that I as suffering from every 10-20 turns.  What a difference!

 

So, long story short, the 4 hour drive was totally worth it.  I even got a full afternoon of skiing at Killington as a bonus.  Overall, it was a great day of skiing and an even better and unique opportunity to meet Bill Doble and see the Dodge Boot operation (I even got to see the next evolution of ski boot technology they're working on and I must say, it is amazing) as well as getting my boot issue fixed.  Thanks Bill!!!

 

As expected from the disturbance sensed in The Force following your opening and subsequent posts...SkiBootJedi realizes how hard it can be to trust guidance on forums like this, but I'm thrilled you finally trusted your instinct, released all fear and followed through on checking your boots AND bindings. Kudos to you and Bill at Dodge. Another skier balanced in the skiing universe!

post #72 of 80

My experience as someone near retirement age with decades of skiing is similar to Ghost and justruss.   The older I get, the easier all mental aspects are, much like getting on a bicycle after not riding for months, or...

 

As a weekend skier, I usually start my season each winter by taking an easy ski run or three to wake up my ski muscels with varying turns and balance.  Quickly am able to ski down steep groomed slopes with near my usual style. Balance is always unstable with weak ankle strength that only improves by getting a few days on consecutive weekends.  In any case, am no where near the bombproof confidence after getting several days in.    Each first day usually take at least one or two runs into good sized bumps if they exist and cannot remember anytime the last couple decades where I was not able to stay in the fall line a modest distance though usually have some rough turns.  And the first day will likely just ski 3 or 4 solid hours before quitting mainly because my brain and its memory is always more capable than my muscels regardless of how much I might work out in days before.   First weekend will not ski back to back days.

 

The above contrasts strongly with my experience long ago during the first decade I skied.   Usually took several days to remember how to ski reasonably advanced intermediate form especially on more advanced slopes.  Ski's of course in those days were more challenging.

post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_SSS View Post

My experience as someone near retirement age with decades of skiing is similar to Ghost and justruss.   The older I get, the easier all mental aspects are, much like getting on a bicycle after not riding for months, or...

likewise.... now, if I could only remember what I did with my keys..... wink.gif
post #74 of 80

Unquestionably, the most valuable posts come from Sugarloafer321, who started this thread and was open to sound guidance received. From his opening post thru #71, the amazing 180 degree turnaround in his on-snow experiences were undoubtably caused by the recent stance adjustments made because of his boot + binding relationship. The good news for all skiers struggling is that MOST similar fatigue and performance deficiencies are NOT YOUR FAULT, but primarily caused by FORE/AFT and LATERAL errors in your equipment system. Kudos to Sugarloafer321 for taking action and sharing his experiences with all!

post #75 of 80
Thread Starter 

As a followup, I have 3 pairs of skis; all of which have the same Marker Jester binding from '13/'14.  I have them setup that way b/c the ramp angle is identical on all 3 skis.  Since none of my local ski shops will shim up a binding to get the bindings at the correct ramp angle, I ended up swapping out the binding on my 3rd pair of skis with another identical Jester.  No more worrying about differences in delta angle anymore.  And believe me when I tell you that the 3rd pair of skis with the Jesters now cause zero quad burn when combined with the boot adjustments.  When I skied them on Saturday with a different pair of bindings, there was a slight burn in the quads and while they were markedly better after the boot adjustments, the burn was still there.  Once I swapped out the bindings with the Jesters, that slight burn went away.  The difference in ramp angle between those 2 sets of bindings was about 1.25 mm.  Not much but enough for me to notice the difference.


Bill

post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
 

It feels awkward for me for at least 5-6 days, then better, then at around 10-12 days it starts fo feel natural.  Some years the first day feels truly awful.

That first day I can't seem to remember that every other turn is to the left!

post #77 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

As a followup, I have 3 pairs of skis; all of which have the same Marker Jester binding from '13/'14.  I have them setup that way b/c the ramp angle is identical on all 3 skis.  Since none of my local ski shops will shim up a binding to get the bindings at the correct ramp angle, I ended up swapping out the binding on my 3rd pair of skis with another identical Jester.  No more worrying about differences in delta angle anymore.  And believe me when I tell you that the 3rd pair of skis with the Jesters now cause zero quad burn when combined with the boot adjustments.  When I skied them on Saturday with a different pair of bindings, there was a slight burn in the quads and while they were markedly better after the boot adjustments, the burn was still there.  Once I swapped out the bindings with the Jesters, that slight burn went away.  The difference in ramp angle between those 2 sets of bindings was about 1.25 mm.  Not much but enough for me to notice the difference.


Bill

 

Thanks for sharing the binding detail and ramp specs that made the final difference for you Sugarloafer321. In your previous post, you also stated that in addition to a liner size change and uprighting your cuffs...

 

"Bill also added a shim to the toe of both boots, which combined with my ramp angle on my bindings, got me more upright."

 

Could you please elaborate on these shim adjustments a little more? In particular, were they added externally to the sole of your Dodge boots or internally, under or inside your liners? Also, how thick are these toe shims?

post #78 of 80

I did a workshop with @bud heishman at Mt Rose with on snow analysis and checking for ramp angle,  Fore/Aft alignment, ski mount points, etc.......

Its amazing what a couple mm can do in any direction, on many planes to make a difference in your skiing. 

post #79 of 80
Thread Starter 

The shims look to be about 1mm or so in thickness. They were added underneath the removable toe plate.

 

Bill

post #80 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

The shims look to be about 1mm or so in thickness. They were added underneath the removable toe plate.

 

Bill

 

Thanks for that clarification Sugarloafer321. Being added externally means the entire boot is LESS tilted forward, which means both your entire foot and leg are less tilted forward over the ski as well. Congrats again for following through on your equipment adjustments. The Force is now with you thanks to your new balanced stance!

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