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Canting Salomon X-Max 120 - Page 2

post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 

 

 

What seems to mess with people is unlike my tree felling analogy, it isn't to move the body over but press the ski down.

 

Hunh.. ok.  well I don't know if something like that can be done to cant this boot.  As for moving the body or ski, that's relative.  I prefer to think of how the stance should be when the ski is flat, so the ski stays fixed in my mind.  It's easier that way, especially since the ground is one piece but the foot and leg are not. Sure you can think about tilting the ski, but relative to what, the foot, the leg, both, depends on what you change. 

post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointDown View Post
 

 

Hunh.. ok.  well I don't know if something like that can be done to cant this boot.  As for moving the body or ski, that's relative.  I prefer to think of how the stance should be when the ski is flat, so the ski stays fixed in my mind.  It's easier that way, especially since the ground is one piece but the foot and leg are not. Sure you can think about tilting the ski, but relative to what, the foot, the leg, both, depends on what you change. 

I'm in this exact boot. It is canted 1.5*

 

This is how it works:

 

You can see how this makes the ski flat.  Notice the boot angle didn't change and the shim press the binding interface down.

post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 

I'm in this exact boot. It is canted 1.5*

 

 

Ah.. this wasn't clear to me, sorry.   Did you only have the heel shimmed , not the toe?  Or did you just leave the toe adjustment out of the picture for simplification?   If only the heel, does the toe just follow, or does something twist a little?

post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointDown View Post

That's how it seems to me.


Claims like this or claims that fixing ski tilt should be done by sole canting are what I never get.

If cuff alignment is perfect and if the footbed is parallel to the ski(maybe some boots aren't made this sanely) then
1) when the legs are at a natural angle
2) The foot is flat 
and 
3) The ski is also flat.
so
4) everything is fine.

The most important thing is the angle between the leg and the ski.  Canting soles can fix that obviously but it also tilts the bottom of the foot and I don't know how that can be called more natural ever.  I've seen it said many times that the goal is to keep a natural stance and fix the boot. A tilted foot surely isn't defined as natural.  Is it better for some people anyway?  I don't know.  I doubt it but doubt it matters much (this is probably where I'm missing some biomechanics subtlety though).  I would think feet can be tilted 2 degrees without much concern.  Legs and skis can't though, so I don't mind fixing it either way.

Cuff alignment matches the angle of entry of your lower leg into the cuff of the boot. Canting (planing and or shimming the sole lets you ride a flat ski with your knee tracking properly on the same axis over your toe(s) and parallel to the front of your ski(s). Cantology makes angled shims for your boots. Once properly installed, the boot fitter will have to mill the height of the heel and toe lug of your boot to meet DIN standard. It WILL make a huge improvement in your skiing IF its determined by your coach/instructor/fitter that you need them. The one weakness of the X Max boots IMHO is the limited ability to align the shaft of your leg with the boot cuff.
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Cuff alignment matches the angle of entry of your lower leg into the cuff of the boot. Canting (planing and or shimming the sole lets you ride a flat ski with your knee tracking properly on the same axis over your toe(s) and parallel to the front of your ski(s). Cantology makes angled shims for your boots. Once properly installed, the boot fitter will have to mill the height of the heel and toe lug of your boot to meet DIN standard. It WILL make a huge improvement in your skiing IF its determined by your coach/instructor/fitter that you need them. The one weakness of the X Max boots IMHO is the limited ability to align the shaft of your leg with the boot cuff.

Whoa! eek.gif

Nobody's aligning my leg to anything! Aligning the boot cuff to my leg is fine biggrin.gif

Details, details.

Ken
post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointDown View Post

Ah.. this wasn't clear to me, sorry.   Did you only have the heel shimmed , not the toe?  Or did you just leave the toe adjustment out of the picture for simplification?   If only the heel, does the toe just follow, or does something twist a little?

They both get done.

Also, as another clarification point; it isn't always a shim that is added. On mine, the boot sole was planed to the required angle, new plates are added (to bring it back to the required thickness for the binding) and then the heel and toe lug are milled so they are square to the binging again.

Here the link to the fitter that did mine.

http://www.gmolfoot.com/gmolbsm.htm

Ken
post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Whoa! eek.gif

Nobody's aligning my leg to anything! Aligning the boot cuff to my leg is fine biggrin.gif

Details, details.

Ken

It was late... Misplacing modifiers and slaughtering grammar is a specialty. Sorry if any legs were broken. smile.gif
post #38 of 48

@LAC I don't know if it's cool to ask what now a particular bootfitter charged for something in public.  I'm just wondering if this needs to be a full couple of hundred dollar scale alignment cost or if this can be more minor. It sounds involved like it would cost a bit.  You can PM me the answer it if helps or I maybe I should just contact your fitter. Anyway thanks for the helpful details.

 

Well I was trying to resist arguing the point more, but ok.  

 

In LAC's picture above, you can think of it two ways.  In his picture the leg remained the same and he tilted the ski.  (I assume the leg is a natural position in both pictures)

 

 

 

You could instead consider what is required to ski with a flat ski in both cases.  In the first picture, of course is if your leg is in natural stance (knee tracking naturally) for the tilted ski, for that setup you have to tilt your leg(s) to get a flat ski (and you WILL).  So the leg is missaligned on a flat ski. Or the ski is missaligned on a straight leg.  You can say it either way. That's not the important point but it does seem to cause needless disagreement.

 

In the end by the second image what he has is a presumably straight leg and flat ski  BUT he still has a tilted foot (it's right there in the picture, red line).    Unless he wanted a tilted foot to correct some orthopedic  problem, then this is not natural. If the leg is straight and the foot is tilted then the ankle is bent, and the ankle bend is controlled by cuff alignment. 

 

There are two "joints" between the leg and ski that determine the ski angle for a natural leg position.  One is the ankle, cuff angle, and one is the hardware on the bottom of the boot,(wedges or whatever).   You can fix the ski with either one.  This Salomon situation is a perfect example.  There is no question my ski is tilted because the cuff is tilted 3 degrees out.  The cuff is tilting my ankle and is tilting my foot and ski relative to my leg. There is also no question it can be fixed by adding a sole cant, because I can certainly stand in a way that looks exactly like LAC's first picture. There is also no question that just like in LAC's picture, this will (does, you can just look at it) leave me with a slightly tilted foot.  In any situation where the footbed was originally parallel to the ski, then canting the sole will leave you with a tilted foot when the ski is flat.  If you wanted to then that's fine, and even if you don't I'd say it's not so bad, but I don't know why you'd assume that's the "right" way to fix the ski when it's at least as likely that the cuff alignment is the right way, as it is for this boot on me.  

 

It's funny that on cantology's web page they mention that fixing the ski angle by changing cuff alignment will make your ankle out of alignment.  Of course that assumes your ankle was in alignment in the first place.   If your leg is straight but your foot is tilted as is presumably the case in LAC's first picture, then you had a tilted ankle.

 

Of course cantology cannot sell cuff alignments, only wedges. I really have to wonder if that has affected the bias in the way of thinking about these things. (edit: I don't mean to imply dishonesty on their part or anyone else's.  Ways of thinking about thing just spread sometimes and probably that's not even the case. I've seen many posts saying that canting is used to fix angled ski problems and cuff alignment just fixes the cuff alignment.  As far as I know many people use the cuff to edge the ski which is why lateral flex is an issue.)


Edited by PointDown - 1/6/14 at 4:55pm
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointDown View Post


Of course cantology cannot sell cuff alignments, only wedges. I really have to wonder if that has affected the bias in the way of thinking about these things.

No, it doesn't. They provide a product that works and saves time. It's arguably easier than planing the boot sole. There's no conspiracy afoot. Either spend the time and money to do proper alignment, or not. It's up to you.
post #40 of 48

Proper alignment for an alignment problem in this case clearly caused by a bow legged cuff, is to straighten the cuff.  Canting the boot sole just also happens to work. I believe that there is no conspiracy.  I didn't mean to imply any dishonesty.

post #41 of 48

Oh, as for money I ask because I don't own the boots yet.  Other boots don't have the problem and at least one I like is more expensive, so why not consider the monetary comparisson.  I'm not going to pay for an alignment in a boot that's pretty right.  I'm not at that level of competition.

post #42 of 48

By the way, yes I can see how tilting the foot (and then re-correcting the cuff) changes the direction your knee tracks as it bends, basically making sure the cuff alignment that worked when you are standing up is the same one that works when you're bent.  

 

I think atomic with their redster has a cool approach to this.  Don't mess with the foot, rotate the boot cuff so it tracks with your leg instead.  I like the idea of keeping it all natural.  Level foot, natural cuff alignment, make the boot follow the leg.

post #43 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointDown View Post

Oh, as for money I ask because I don't own the boots yet.  Other boots don't have the problem and at least one I like is more expensive, so why not consider the monetary comparisson.  I'm not going to pay for an alignment in a boot that's pretty right.  I'm not at that level of competition.

Again, without some analysis, it's tough say, but it would be pretty rare to find a boot right out of the box that would resolve significant alignment issues... Matter of fact, I'd say it doesn't exist. You should ask 'the boot guys' . Speaking only for myself, proper alignment (footbed, cuff alignment, and canting) solved a bunch of issues including the most important one for longevity in the sport, knee pain.
post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Again, without some analysis, it's tough say, but it would be pretty rare to find a boot right out of the box that would resolve significant alignment issues... Matter of fact, I'd say it doesn't exist. You should ask 'the boot guys' . Speaking only for myself, proper alignment (footbed, cuff alignment, and canting) solved a bunch of issues including the most important one for longevity in the sport, knee pain.

 

 

Well inspite of some things that I still think are often said in overly absolute terms, you did get me thinking about things in terms of not just standing straight up but knee tracking and this seems to be the key difference to sole canting, not ski-leg angle which cuff alignment alone can do, but how that angle changes when you bend  (although MANY descriptions miss this point).  Tilting the foot does change that.  I have a tiny bit of inward knee tracking as i bend WHEN in a straight footed ski stance (not in my normal duck foot stance).  Yes this kind of subtlety probably can't be fixed out of the box (I think the redster can get very close, but it's a bunch of boot) but I can probably live with that for a couple of years as it's minor. In fact I realize that sole canting the salomon to fix the cuff issue goes the wrong way with this for me! as you tilt your feet in your knees want to track towards each other more when they bend, so I really should be fixing the cuff, not letting the feet tilt.  Fixing a sole cant to match a wrong cuff angle is probably not an ideal solution. So.. this discussion might make me realize all the more that the Salomon is not an ideal boot for me.  I'm not looking to fix every subtlety of my natural mechanics this year, I was just not liking that the Salomon makes things quite a bit worse than my natural mechanics, and possibly in a way that cannot ever be fixed in that boot. 


Edited by PointDown - 1/6/14 at 9:44pm
post #45 of 48
If you would like to know more about alignment I would suggest getting a copy of The Athletic Skier.
post #46 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointDown View Post

By the way, yes I can see how tilting the foot (and then re-correcting the cuff) changes the direction your knee tracks as it bends, basically making sure the cuff alignment that worked when you are standing up is the same one that works when you're bent.  

I think atomic with their redster has a cool approach to this.  Don't mess with the foot, rotate the boot cuff so it tracks with your leg instead.  I like the idea of keeping it all natural.  Level foot, natural cuff alignment, make the boot follow the leg.
You're overlooking that many people are bow legged or knock kneed, and even if you align the cuffs to the leg you still may need to grind the soles to get the ski flat. They are two separate problems, not two solutions to one problem.
Most ski boots have cuff canting.
post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


You're overlooking that many people are bow legged or knock kneed, and even if you align the cuffs to the leg you still may need to grind the soles to get the ski flat. They are two separate problems, not two solutions to one problem.
Most ski boots have cuff canting.

 

Old thread but I missed the reply because it was old then too and I'm going to respond for the record anyway.

 

I didn't overlook that at all and you didn't read my post carefully enough.  I'm a little knock kneed and if I stand without skis or boots with my feet parallel then

a) my feet are FLAT to the ground

b) I'm knock kneed

c) There are exactly ZERO problems to be solved.  My legs work perfectly fine like this and.. as I said, ARE flat to the ground (edit: does anyone stand on the ground with their feet not flat to the ground?).

 

So why would I want to tilt my foot?  All I need is a boot cuff that follows the angle (and motion) of my leg.

It turns out the angle part is easy, but the motion part is hard.  knocked knees don't track forward and all boots do, even sole canted or cuff canted boots still track forward (atomics as the only exception I know of, with an adjustment)

 

It turns out you can change tracking angle OF YOUR LEG by changing the angle of your foot to the ground, so you can fix one thing that wasn't a problem to force another that wasn't a problem to work like the boot which was  a problem and this is why both are used.  The right solution is cuff canting along with rotation of the flex axis, like atomic provides. In other words the right thing is making the boot work like the body, which obviously doesn't involve tilting your foot, because tilted feet are NOT how the body works.

post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointDown View Post
 

 

Old thread but I missed the reply because it was old then too and I'm going to respond for the record anyway.

 

I didn't overlook that at all and you didn't read my post carefully enough.  I'm a little knock kneed and if I stand without skis or boots with my feet parallel then

a) my feet are FLAT to the ground

b) I'm knock kneed

c) There are exactly ZERO problems to be solved.  My legs work perfectly fine like this and.. as I said, ARE flat to the ground (edit: does anyone stand on the ground with their feet not flat to the ground?).

 

So why would I want to tilt my foot?  All I need is a boot cuff that follows the angle (and motion) of my leg.

It turns out the angle part is easy, but the motion part is hard.  knocked knees don't track forward and all boots do, even sole canted or cuff canted boots still track forward (atomics as the only exception I know of, with an adjustment)

 

It turns out you can change tracking angle OF YOUR LEG by changing the angle of your foot to the ground, so you can fix one thing that wasn't a problem to force another that wasn't a problem to work like the boot which was  a problem and this is why both are used.  The right solution is cuff canting along with rotation of the flex axis, like atomic provides. In other words the right thing is making the boot work like the body, which obviously doesn't involve tilting your foot, because tilted feet are NOT how the body works.

 

What did you end up with? I'm in exact same situation now with a pair of Xmax130. Want to pull the trigger but the angle is way off. 

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