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How to Measure Base Angle

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

I know, there are other threads on this.  I'm just not getting it.  I'm attempting to flatten my bases on some Dynastar Sultan 85s with a nice edge dent (not trying to flatten that part!) and plenty of now repaired core shots.  In other words, I'm experimenting with skis that I don't care much about but still use.  I'm using the two Ski Vision tools (one with file and one with metal/ceramic(?) bar) and hate to admit I've spent hours on this project over the summer.

 

Problem is, I just can't figure out how to measure the base angle.

 

*I have one of those digital angle cube gadgets I've seen in other threads on this site.  I bought some "powerful" round magnets to stick to the base edge.  The measurements are highly inconsistent.  I make sure the ski is level before I measure.  At one point everything looks good.  Next day, check again and everything changed.  Must be the elves in my workshop.  I just don't trust the accuracy or consistency of this tool.

 

*I have two different true bars - the typical long cube type bar and a round bar.  I can't for the life of me figure out how to get accurate measurements.  Just confirming that the bar is flush with the edge is near impossible as there's always some light gap at any angle and the edge isn't exactly large.  Then to hold the thing perfectly still and measure 57mm away from the edge.  Of course I marked it off but it's impossible to hold still and measure the height off the ski.

 

*True bar part 2 - trying to use a feeler gauge in the gap between the edge and the true bar.  Another near impossibility.  .003 for a 1* base and be slid under almost anything.  These measurements are too precise or I'm just ham-fisted.  Probably both.

 

If any of these tools is remotely correct, my bases are highly erratic along the length.

 

I know, just bring it in for that fictional $15 base grind (I've never seen the low prices mentioned on this board in a shop).  But, I'd like to try to do this myself.  Seems like it shouldn't be that hard to flatten the base and tune to 1*.  "Seems like it..."

post #2 of 21

You can't get the edges back to flat without a base grind. You can flatten the p-tex all you want, but the base edge bevel is just that a bevel of the base edge metal.

 

So you must have the entire base and edges stone ground to flat., 0 Base edge bevel.

 

And it is 60mm across the ski where a 1mm gap  = 1 degree. You match the true bar to the angle of the base edge while holding the ski over your shoulder base up with a light source shining back at you so it is behind the tru bar.

You need to get visually set in your mind what a 1 mm gap looks like.

 

Use the finest straightest file you can get to impart the base bevel go gingerly.

 

Or you can spend $260.00 like me an Zenny and get an SVST Pro bevelmeter!

post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

You can't get the edges back to flat without a base grind. You can flatten the p-tex all you want, but the base edge bevel is just that a bevel of the base edge metal.

 

Or you can spend $260.00 like me an Zenny and get an SVST Pro bevelmeter!

Interesting - I was wondering about the relationship of the p-tex flatness to the actual base edge bevel.  The one Ski Visions tool has a file, but I'm somewhat skeptical.  I also fear flattening but "tilting" a base as it's easy for the ski to not be perfectly flat when filing.

 

I saw that SVST meter - then I saw the price (actually thought it was more in the $350 range).  

post #4 of 21

   Yes. Ideally it is best to have them flattened by a skilled technician. The SVST meter is a very good tool which is around $260.00  http://www.race-werks.com/svst-pro-bevel-meter/ Just used mine tonight to confirm my .25 base bevel underfoot on my SL's...

 

    It's not surprising at all that you've taken some unusual readings--even base/side bevels from the factory can be ummm...erroneous. Things such as measuring a base edge bevel just take some experience and Aman has outlined the 60mm rule. Certainly one wants them to be consistent. 

 

  I've heard mixed reviews regarding the skivisions--use with care! But again, if they need it I would search for a good shop in your area. Perhaps someone on this forum is familiar with shops in the East.......

 

   zenny

post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

   Yes. Ideally it is best to have them flattened by a skilled technician. The SVST meter is a very good tool which is around $260.00  http://www.race-werks.com/svst-pro-bevel-meter/ Just used mine tonight to confirm my .25 base bevel underfoot on my SL's...

 

    It's not surprising at all that you've taken some unusual readings--even base/side bevels from the factory can be ummm...erroneous. Things such as measuring a base edge bevel just take some experience and Aman has outlined the 60mm rule. Certainly one wants them to be consistent.

 

  I've heard mixed reviews regarding the skivisions--use with care! But again, if they need it I would search for a good shop in your area. Perhaps someone on this forum is familiar with shops in the East.......

 

   zenny

:)Thumbs Up

post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

You can't get the edges back to flat without a base grind. You can flatten the p-tex all you want, but the base edge bevel is just that a bevel of the base edge metal.

 

So you must have the entire base and edges stone ground to flat., 0 Base edge bevel.

 

And it is 60mm across the ski where a 1mm gap  = 1 degree. You match the true bar to the angle of the base edge while holding the ski over your shoulder base up with a light source shining back at you so it is behind the tru bar.

You need to get visually set in your mind what a 1 mm gap looks like.

 

Use the finest straightest file you can get to impart the base bevel go gingerly.

 

Or you can spend $260.00 like me an Zenny and get an SVST Pro bevelmeter!

 

Just want to comment on this aspect.  When I visited SkiMD a few weeks ago, he pulled out the coolest true bar.  It had a little flashlight built into it pointing straight down behind it.  Looked incredibly convenient.  If anyone want to know what I want for Christmas...:D

post #7 of 21
   I just remembered another way to "measure' the base edge--it comes from none other that Willy Wiltz (former service man for Bode and Daron) and I've found it to be surprisingly accurate. Lay your true bar across the ski and over the edge in question and observe the light. A thin sliver of light that reaches from the outside of the base edge to halfway across it is equivalent to a .5 degree. A thin sliver that is 3/4ths of the way across it is a .75, and a thin sliver all the way across is a 1. A thicker sliver of light across is 1+--this is assuming it doesn't tun into the base. 
 
   Another way is to darken the edge in question with a felt tip pen and then use a medium to fine grit diamond stone (dry) and a base bevel guide which you suspect it may be at, and lightly polish away the marker on the edge. I f the marker is removed from the base out towards the edge the bevel is greater than that of the guide you have chosen, and vice versa....
 
  Also goldsbar, I would really recommend getting a "knife edged" true bar as they are far easier to use. Here is a less expensive one http://www.the-raceplace.com/True-BEAST-p/3018.htm
 
  True BEAST
 
   And this is the one I like (but it is pricey)  http://www.race-werks.com/svst-world-cup-true-bar-6/
 
   SVST-World-Cup-True-Bar__45347.1320375693.1280.1280.jpg
    Either one will give you great results and last you for a very long time....
 
   zenny
post #8 of 21

I have the beast true bar and I like it. I put my shop drop light behind it and slide it up and down the ski. I bought a flip up magnifying visor that really helps when looking at the ski. Like the guys above have posted, you almost have to develop a feel or familiarity for what you are looking for. You are trying to judge about .003 inches or less of gap along a 5 foot long ski. To do it technically, you would need serious optical inspection equipment. Just for reference, a human hair is .007 inches thick typically. By rocking the true bar across the ski, you can feel if it is flat or base high, I think that is convex. If it is edge high, you won't feel any rocking, but there will be more light coming under the bar. I can put my bar on just one edge and rock it till I can feel it align with the base bevel. The contact point shifts from the inside of the edge to the outside of the edge and you can feel it. If you get it aligned with the base bevel, you can then use the 60mm rule to get at least an eye ball measurement of where you are. I made or found a 1 mm thick flat bar and hold that near the 60 mm spot to judge the gap. The magnifying visors sure help with this.

 

Keep trying different things and you will get something to work consistently for you. 

post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsbar View Post
 

I know, there are other threads on this.  I'm just not getting it.  I'm attempting to flatten my bases on some Dynastar Sultan 85s with a nice edge dent (not trying to flatten that part!) and plenty of now repaired core shots.  In other words, I'm experimenting with skis that I don't care much about but still use.  I'm using the two Ski Vision tools (one with file and one with metal/ceramic(?) bar) and hate to admit I've spent hours on this project over the summer.

 

Problem is, I just can't figure out how to measure the base angle.

 

*I have one of those digital angle cube gadgets I've seen in other threads on this site.  I bought some "powerful" round magnets to stick to the base edge.  The measurements are highly inconsistent.  I make sure the ski is level before I measure.  At one point everything looks good.  Next day, check again and everything changed.  Must be the elves in my workshop.  I just don't trust the accuracy or consistency of this tool.

 

*I have two different true bars - the typical long cube type bar and a round bar.  I can't for the life of me figure out how to get accurate measurements.  Just confirming that the bar is flush with the edge is near impossible as there's always some light gap at any angle and the edge isn't exactly large.  Then to hold the thing perfectly still and measure 57mm away from the edge.  Of course I marked it off but it's impossible to hold still and measure the height off the ski.

 

*True bar part 2 - trying to use a feeler gauge in the gap between the edge and the true bar.  Another near impossibility.  .003 for a 1* base and be slid under almost anything.  These measurements are too precise or I'm just ham-fisted.  Probably both.

 

If any of these tools is remotely correct, my bases are highly erratic along the length.

 

I know, just bring it in for that fictional $15 base grind (I've never seen the low prices mentioned on this board in a shop).  But, I'd like to try to do this myself.  Seems like it shouldn't be that hard to flatten the base and tune to 1*.  "Seems like it..."


Sounds like you are way to worried over nothing.  Once you flatten the base to hit the edges, then use a black marker on the base edge.  Now start with your 1 degree base bevel guide.  Give a few passes with a file.  See where you are removing the black.  Is it even?   Is it most to the outside?   Is it only the inside of the edge?   This will tell you what you need to know.

I don't use the visions tool, but what I do is basically the same thing you are doing.  Don't get too freaked out about the angle.  If it is close .5, .7, or  to 1.0 or what ever you want you will be fine.  Don't sweat the small stuff.  All you want is a consistent bevel from end to end of the contact points.

If you have not seen my video already it might help you. 

 

Here it is.

 



 

post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 

After reading the replies (haven't viewed the video yet) and many other threads, I've come to the conclusion that the true bar is the best (cheap) way of measuring base angle.  The digital angle meter just isn't consistent enough - different readings in the same spot - and I'm using really powerful magnets.

 

I found a washer in my toolbox that was 1mm thick and use that as a reference.  I marked my true bar near the edge and then another line at 60mm (57 is technically correct FWIW).  I was able to get the ski bases flat-er, not flat with the two Skivisions tools.  I basically got everything down to 0.5* on average (huge variance) and then used the market trick and the true bar to get to a semi-even (and I do mean semi) 1.0*.  I need to measure some of my other skis, but my guess is that many are not skiing on a consistent base edge and it probably doesn't matter.  Can't wait to try them out.

 

Slightly off topic (side edge), carbide files are awesome.  Wow!  If this thing lasts, well worth the sale price from Tognar last year.  I've never seen edge material fly off so fast and evenly.

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsbar View Post
 

After reading the replies (haven't viewed the video yet) and many other threads, I've come to the conclusion that the true bar is the best (cheap) way of measuring base angle.  The digital angle meter just isn't consistent enough - different readings in the same spot - and I'm using really powerful magnets.

 

I found a washer in my toolbox that was 1mm thick and use that as a reference.  I marked my true bar near the edge and then another line at 60mm (57 is technically correct FWIW).  I was able to get the ski bases flat-er, not flat with the two Skivisions tools.  I basically got everything down to 0.5* on average (huge variance) and then used the market trick and the true bar to get to a semi-even (and I do mean semi) 1.0*.  I need to measure some of my other skis, but my guess is that many are not skiing on a consistent base edge and it probably doesn't matter.  Can't wait to try them out.

 

Slightly off topic (side edge), carbide files are awesome.  Wow!  If this thing lasts, well worth the sale price from Tognar last year.  I've never seen edge material fly off so fast and evenly.


Your base bevel guide will control your base bevel.  Just file away and use a black marker and good light.  Bevel until you just see it touch the plastic or remove all the black ink.  Forget any fancy thing to "read" the bevel.  Consistent base bevel is paramount to how the skis are going to handle.  It does matter.  The skis do not need to be "perfect" flat, just close to it.  Good luck and happy tuning. 

post #12 of 21
Do what Jacques says: black felt marker, mark a one inch strip every two inches, tip to tail, on the edge. Then shove an old diamond stone 400 and up in the 1 degree guide and see if it removes the marks. The bevel will generally be inconsistent tip to tail

The ski visions tool does the same as Jacques scraper, except you got one metal blade to flatten and one stone to stucture. The ski visions flattener should work really nice too, if youd int apply a lot of pressure and trst the basef latness very often.
post #13 of 21
Here is my process

1. Get a 1 degree bevel and a file and go at the edges until you remove all the marker and startt o bite the base.
2. The ski visions file first, file the bases until close to flat. Either the files or the metal blade
3. Re check base flatness often when happy, stop
3 - happy is when the one ghird under foot is flat and the front and bakc thirds are as close to flat as you can bring them without eating allt he base, edge or running out of beer
4. Marker then 1 degree base bevel and file, go at it until it is all consistent
5. Ski visions stone blade, structure the base. If you dont have one, 150 sandpaper
6. A lot of passes with a steel brush alternated with a fibertex pad
7. A few hot scrapes

It may take a few hours. The trick is to measure very often and keep tools and skis very clean.

[edit] jf you carve FIS level on injected ice, then consider going under 1 degree base bevel.
Edited by razie - 11/17/13 at 1:51pm
post #14 of 21

I have used the Toko World Cup base bevel file guide for years (I think I found it through a recommendation on this forum).  The beauty of this guide is that it makes it virtually impossible to over-bevel.  I never worry about measuring the bevels because I trust my guides.  Invest in high quality guides and keep your sanity.

post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post
 

I have used the Toko World Cup base bevel file guide for years (I think I found it through a recommendation on this forum).  The beauty of this guide is that it makes it virtually impossible to over-bevel.  I never worry about measuring the bevels because I trust my guides.  Invest in high quality guides and keep your sanity.


That's the truth there!   I like my BEAST guides.  Whatever you use, use a good one.

Here is what BEAST claims.  From their website.

 

#1 Ski Base Edge Beveler in the World!

Our proven stainless steel and polycarbonate design is tremendously successful with ski tuning techs around the world. This uniquely designed ski base edger features angled side arms, a "tongue" file grip, and ergonomic finger rests, all allowing for efficient cutting and an easy, comfortable grip. The stainless steel floating elevation bar tilts the file or stone at a precise angle for easy set-up and maintenance of base edge bevels.

Why Base BEAST is #1

The polycarbonate used in the Base BEAST main frame is one of the toughest and most stable materials available and is used in many high tech applications, including eyeglass lenses, Blu-ray discs, and bulletproof shields.

The accuracy of the Base BEAST is assured by a patented design, which maintains the base angle with a precise stainless steel elevation bar set at the optimum distance from the ski edge.

This durability of material combined with an accurate, easy to use design makes Base BEAST the #1 selling base edge beveler in the World!

post #16 of 21

Another method i've used is to lay a true bar across the base then use a feeler gauge to measure the base bevel.  I've also used this method to check the flatness of a ski.  Simply see if you can slide the feeler gauge between the true bar and the ski base.  By using a feeler gauge, it's easy to measure how concave or convex the ski is.  I have a SkiVision base planer and the metal cutting bar makes a nice true bar if you hold it such that one of the corners is touching the base.

post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

I have used the Toko World Cup base bevel file guide for years (I think I found it through a recommendation on this forum).  The beauty of this guide is that it makes it virtually impossible to over-bevel.  I never worry about measuring the bevels because I trust my guides.  Invest in high quality guides and keep your sanity.
For some reason that looks a lot more bomb-proof than others I've seen--probably just because it extends all the way across the base.
post #18 of 21

I think the thing with Toko file guides (have one @ 1*) and Artech (have one @ .7*) is that they are solid and span the base of the ski.  Artechs are a little wider and a heck of a lot cheaper.

post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 

I think the thing with Toko file guides (have one @ 1*) and Artech (have one @ .7*) is that they are solid and span the base of the ski.  Artechs are a little wider and a heck of a lot cheaper.


Yep, it's the width across the ski base that provides the greater assurance against over-beveling the base edge.

post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post
 


Yep, it's the width across the ski base that provides the greater assurance against over-beveling the base edge.

Actually it is the fact it is all the way across the base that keeps you from UNDER -BEVELING the edge in most cases. Most base edge bevels including THE BEAST, uses a foot/glide that sits on the p-tex base and gets it's bevel angle from the base.

 

If the base is concave (most common) where the glide sits down lower creates under-beveling. And since this is often the case on wider skis in the tip and tail area, your skis will ski awful. skis will feel grabby and hooky, like a hanging burr since there is less bevel in the tip and tail than under foot.

 

If Convex that raises the glide and creates over-beveling!

 

The beauty of the TOKO is that all this is taken out of the equation, since it spans the entire base and more. Although convex base (center high) would still cause problems

post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsbar View Post
 

.  I'm using the two Ski Vision tools (one with file and one with metal/ceramic(?) bar) and hate to admit I've spent hours on this project over the summer.

 

Don't be like the guys in my junior high shop class (do they have those any more?) who spent the entire semester trying to square a 4x12x1 piece of stock with a hand plane and wound up with a toothpick.

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