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Two footed shuffling - pushing and pulling both feet together

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Two footed shuffle:  slide both feet forward, then slide both feet back, between turns, then eventually throughout entire turns, on groomers. 

 

I just read in another thread that doing a two-footed shuffle through your turns will help prepare one for skiing deep powder.  

Someone else commented that this drill is helpful in preparing people to ski bumps.  

Anyone want to discuss?

post #2 of 28
Is it not helpful for all turns?
Is it not the same as the backpedal thread started recently?
Don't we backpedal in all offensive gliding turns?
...bumps, powder, groomer
...gliding wedge to dynamic parallel
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 

cgeib, I have asked that question in the distant past here and people never responded with a yes.  I look forward to hearing from more folks to see what the consensus is these days.  I'm going to be especially interested if people say they backpedal in small, medium, and long radius turns on groomed snow.  

 

Is that what you are saying?

post #4 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

cgeib, I have asked that question in the distant past here and people never responded with a yes.  I look forward to hearing from more folks to see what the consensus is these days.  I'm going to be especially interested if people say they backpedal in small, medium, and long radius turns on groomed snow.  

 

Is that what you are saying?

 

I sure do.

post #5 of 28

Further expansion on the smart-a-s-s answer.  The amount of back-pedal (i.e., how far "ahead" of me I let my skis get during the transition phase) is dependent on the radius of the turn -- a short radius turn has a much more forceful and active backpedal than a long radius turn does.

 

The only time I don't backpedal is when I'm scared out of my mind and I don't want to let go of the old turn.  It's entirely possible to ski that way (i.e., without backpedaling, even when you're not scared), but after many years of ingraining the back-pedaling motion it doesn't feel very "flowing".

 

To me, getting that awesome feeling of "one turn automagically starts the next one" means that you need to get the backpedaling going.  No backpedaling means starting each turn again.

post #6 of 28
Hi LF,

Yes, that is what I was saying.

However, I was specific concerning offensive gliding turns; as Kevin points out, it is entirely possible to ski defensively and not use/experience/exhibit the backpedalling motion much, if any at all.

It is also a frame of reference. If you look at Bob's stickman the CoM is fixed and everything is moving in relation to it, thus it looks like the stickman is backpedalling. Many don't relate to that and take exception to the notion of anything moving backward during a turn. When is the last time a skier skied by you with part of them moving back up the hill? Then again how many times have you given the advice to not allow that inside hand to drop back? Different frames of reference and we switch all the time. So the skier going by moves their feet forward and back in relation to "them" as they pass by and you see everything moving down the hill.

I would not expect to get concensus on people saying they backpedal. Nonetheless, a Rose by any other name…

Could these images (courtesy of Bob Barnes) all be thought of as dynamic parallel viewed in 2D from different vantage points?






post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 

If one is truly backpedaling during groomer turns, one is on the shovels during the top of the turn and on the tails during the bottom of the turn.  

i.e., one pushes both feet forward of the hips/COM at the end of turns, and pulls both feet back behind the hips/COM at the top of the turn.

 

Is that what you are actually saying?  Even with medium and long radius turns?  Even on shaped skis?  

This means you are certainly NOT centered over your skis for the entire turn, nor centered over the arch in your boots throughout the turn.  

Doesn't it?

post #8 of 28

the drill you talk of is a great way to find your balance range though out turns.  Like I have always said balance is not about staying centered but finding how far you can go and still returns to strong stance. you take it step further and dolphin though out the turn.

 

I think of skiing as constant SIN curve where my COM is being tossed from apex to apex in such a way I appeared to be balanced on my skis, but in reality I am constantly redirecting and correcting my COM path to be as efficiently balanced on my outside skis as I can be.

 

This brings me up to something I was ranting to another ski teacher friend IRL last week, I hate it when an instructor ask me for help on their 'stance" I actually HATE the term. stance to me implies a static positions and even stance width is free to change as long as its efficient and appropriate for the task at hand. STANCE should always talk about balance and balance is never a static thing. I feel many top end PSIAer just simply do not get the idea of not crushing the front of your boots all the time, or a backpedaling/foot squirt move. 

 

.....I do realize and conside that sometime you must use static reference frames to describe this stuff to people and/or set up boots but it should always be added that balance is movement.

post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

the drill you talk of is a great way to find your balance range though out turns.  Like I have always said balance is not about staying centered but finding how far you can go and still returns to strong stance. you take it step further and dolphin though out the turn.

 

I think of skiing as constant SIN curve where my COM is being tossed from apex to apex in such a way I appeared to be balanced on my skis, but in reality I am constantly redirecting and correcting my COM path to be as efficiently balanced on my outside skis as I can be.

 

This brings me up to something I was ranting to another ski teacher friend IRL last week, I hate it when an instructor ask me for help on their 'stance" I actually HATE the term. stance to me implies a static positions and even stance width is free to change as long as its efficient and appropriate for the task at hand. STANCE should always talk about balance and balance is never a static thing. I feel many top end PSIAer just simply do not get the idea of not crushing the front of your boots all the time, or a backpedaling/foot squirt move. 

 

.....I do realize and conside that sometime you must use static reference frames to describe this stuff to people and/or set up boots but it should always be added that balance is movement.

 

Well said!  Thumbs Up  Weems (I think it was Weems...) had a comment once where he said "if you're in a position long enough to realize that you're in a position at all, you've been there far too long".

post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

If one is truly backpedaling during groomer turns, one is on the shovels during the top of the turn and on the tails during the bottom of the turn.  

i.e., one pushes both feet forward of the hips/COM at the end of turns, and pulls both feet back behind the hips/COM at the top of the turn.

 

Is that what you are actually saying?  Even with medium and long radius turns?  Even on shaped skis?  

This means you are certainly NOT centered over your skis for the entire turn, nor centered over the arch in your boots throughout the turn.  

Doesn't it?

 

Maybe I'm not up on my PSIA terminology, but to me, the "top" of one turn is the "bottom" of the previous turn.

 

I think the problem a lot of people have with back-pedaling is thinking about in a third dimension.  Yes, at the moment of transition (both skis released) a still picture would look like the skier is hopelessly back seat, but since your COM is also moving downhill, you're really not...  Or at least it doesn't feel like it.  You backpedal so that your COM can move into the next turn; thinking of one move without the other just doesn't work.

post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 

But but but ... the two-footed shuffle "drill" is to push both feet forward, which definitely puts you in the back seat, and then pull them both back, which puts you on the hood.  

 

If you take that to skiing, it works the same, or you're not taking it to skiing.  Is two footed shuffling as a drill good for groomer skiing, short and medium and long radius turns on groomed slopes, or for other stuff, or what?

post #12 of 28

its a balance drill I am sure you will find benefit everywhere from it. have you done it at all? Whats wrong with being in the backseat?

 

......like I said we move into and out of balance all the time in expert level skiing.

post #13 of 28

  I don't think what we are discussing here is only relegated towards being a drill. Sliding the feet back and forth underneath us is the most efficient way to adjust our fore/aft balancing as we move from turn to turn as snow is slippery and our legs/skis have less mass than our upper bodies. I'm also OK with calling it backpedaling--indeed, there is more than one similarity between skiing bumps and ripping up a groomer, such as the continual changes in effective slope angle for instance...

 

  I do think that to some degree, the forces in a turn with otherwise good mechanics will proved some of this fore aft weight shift on their own. As we move towards the fall line after crossing, ahead of our skis, our skis tip high on edge as a result and begin to turn back towards us (and towards the next crossing) eventually providing us with some fore pressure, it's just that do we want to be proactive, or let the chips fall where they may. 

 

  There can be an counter intuitive result of too much (or forceful) pullback at the top of the turn though, akin to heading into the trough of a real bump with too much forward bias--we can get rocked backward as a result....

 

   zenny

post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

its a balance drill I am sure you will find benefit everywhere from it. have you done it at all? Whats wrong with being in the backseat?

 

......like I said we move into and out of balance all the time in expert level skiing.

 

Just inquiring...

Josh, Zenny, do you intentionally push your feet forward and pull them back in any of your turns on groomed snow (similar to what you do in the drill)?  

I'm not talking about recoveries.

I'm not talking about adjusting to inconsistencies in snow that move you out of balance.

I'm not talking about passive movements of the feet fore and aft as you make turns.

 

I'm talking about intentional, repeated moves involving muscles flexing and extending, as in the drill.  I'm talking about intentional moves that motorize turns on groomed snow.  

 

Do you?

Do others reading this?

post #15 of 28

   I do LF, though it's largely an instinctive thing by now (as in, the how much and the when). Also, I do not view that having the feet passing us in transition as being backseat, it's part of dynamic balancing. As Josh said, we move into and out of balance in good, offensive turns (like when we topple, for instance). As long as our balance axis doesn't move too far in front of our BOF or too far beyond our arch/heel we are in the safe zone. A good skier needs to be able to move around on his or her skis so that they can successfully employ various tactics/turn shapes....

 

    zenny

post #16 of 28
Hi LF,

Yes, moving your feet forward and back under you in that drill can cause you to be out of balance fore and aft …or can it maintain your balance?

What happens when you are straight running a cat track or easy green on flat skis? You will move fore and aft along the length of the ski right? …and maybe get out of balance forward and backward.

What happens when you traverse across a mogul field and do it? Like Stickman is doing? Do you fall forward and fall back or does your active movement keep your CoM supported? You stay "balanced" right? The drill taught you how to move your feet so you could traverse the bumps and align to the forces to support your CoM …or position your feet in anticipation to support you/direct you or however that needs related (see Josh's posts), yes? Did you make sudden moves to push your feet forward and pull them back, or did you move continuously as you went from crest to trough to crest to stay in balance? You likely moved continuously and kept the forces aligned like Stickman does and maybe never felt like you actively backpedalled because in doing so you focused on moving forward across the slope. Remember Back Pedalling is a perspective from a given frame of reference and is really caused by the relative forward rates of motion of our CoM as compared to our feet …both continue moving forward down the hill all the time, but the rates each moves down the hill varies - either by their speed changing (mogul traverse) or their path (reaching out to the apex of the turn) or a combination of both.

Can you map Stickman's side view onto Bob's Dynamic Parallel Turns montage? Top of the first bump at #5, bottom of first trough at #9, top of second bump at #13, bottom of second trough at #17. Notice in the montage how the relationship between the CoM and feet fore and aft changes just like Stickman. And as Kevin pointed out the CoM is also moving across the skis into the turn then back out of the turn and across into the next. Did Bob depict sudden changes in fore/aft at the beginning and end, or continuous flow throughout? Looks continuous to me. Were the feet pulled back at the top of the turn or did the CoM take a shorter line and move ahead? Were the feet pushed ahead at the end of the turn or were they traveling faster and allowed to catch and pass the CoM? Do you want to pull the feet back or allow them reach out to the apex? Can you see the back pedal from above on the groomer?

Here is another perspective of it from Bob:


Is the fore/aft activity moving the skier out of balance continuously or allowing them to maintain balance continuously?

Do you push your feet forward at the end of the turn and pull them back at the beginning of the next? Take a poll! Opinions vary.

For me, not if I can help it. I want to move continuously throughout the turn and be the most relaxed during the transition from one turn to another (the time when many will advocate the most work needing done). If it doesn't work out right, then yes corrections need made, but by default I don't want to be doing my work during the transition.

I also want to choose if I am staying centered throughout the turn or skiing more dynamically and moving along the bottom of the foot throughout the turn. Normally the latter - even in a lower performance turn i.e. wedge christie, basic parallel… however, you still have to move a lot even if you want to simply stay centered throughout the turn.

I'm with Josh & Kevin though, don't worry about the backseat thing and don't get stuck thinking "forward" is along the length of your ski. As long as you allow your CoM to flow across your skis into the new turn at the same time the skis seem to be leaving you behind, you will be ahead of your feet with them in position to "catch" you.

Go try it!

Best,

Chris
post #17 of 28

   LF, I should probably clarify a bit. As cgeib has said, the more important way of thinking forward is towards the fall line with the Cm--toppling out of balance. This is how we can acheive the higher edge angles that we will then need later in the turn as we begin to move back into balancing. This is one of the reasons we do not want too early/heavy duty hip angulation, generally, as it moves us into balance too soon and can actually stop the development of increasing edge angles...

 

  Anyways, I don't feel it is something that needs to be actively performed for every turn because regardless, as I and others have said, you will move in "front" of your skis and they will move in "front" of you throughout your turns--but when you wish to apply a little more force to the tip...

 

  As I said, for me it's largely an unconscoious thing...

 

    zenny

post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 

Here are some drill sequences using this movement pattern (pushing and pulling two feet together using muscle action):

 

Stand on flat snow.  Push both feet forward and pull both feet aft.  Don't fall over.

Slide straight down a shallow pitch.  Push both feet forward and pull both feet aft.  Don't fall over.

Make round turns on that shallow pitch, pushing both feet forward and pulling them back while turning.  Getting good!  

Take it up the hill.  Make medium round turns on gentle terrain, pushing both feet forward and pulling them back between turns, then through entire turns.  Very good now!

This is still a drill; it encourages versatility, and prepares you for recoveries.  But would anyone want to ski this way?  No, but it's worth doing to increase balance awareness.

 

Another application of the two footed push-pull:  stand across the hill; sideslip down.  Push both feet forward and sideslip backwards down.  Pull both feet back and slideslip forwards down.  Do this backie-forthy and you've got one version of falling leaf.  As a drill this illuminates the impact of being forward or back on flattened sliding skis.  This is not just a drill; it's actually useful in some tight situations....  (Falling leaf can be accomplished by opening and closing ankles as well, but that does not involve pushing and pulling the feet which is my topic.)

 

Let's up the ante:  do the two-footed push-pull thing while skiing along on a groomer, but add vertical "oomph" at the end of the forward push.  Propel the skis up into the air!  Pull them back behind you while they're in the air, and put them down behind your hips, tips first.  You've got dolphin turns!  A très-cool trick involving serious athleticism, but still in essence a drill.

 

Let's up the ante another way: on a shallow pitch do the two footed push-pull, but add rotary.  Pull them back behind your hips, then push them way out to the side and around to in front of you.  Then pull them back and push them forward and around on the other side.  Pull back, push out and around to the front, pull back and push out and around on the other side.  Keep them flat enough to slide them around muscularly in a very-very-short-radius turn under an upright torso.  You're moving your feet in a sideways figure eight beneath your hips.  Bumpers do this drill on groomers to prepare for skiing the zipper line. (Can't find video right now but I know there are plenty out there.) 

 

All these are variations on the two-footed push-pull drill; usually they are not ways to ski. They are not efficient; they are athletic and elevate the heart rate.  They do not focus on flow.  

Once you are skiing with one leg long and the other short, the two-footed push-pull action doesn't work so well. 

 

 

 

Edited by LiquidFeet - 11/1/13 at 8:43am
post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
....
What happens when you traverse across a mogul field and do it? Like Stickman is doing? Do you fall forward and fall back or does your active movement keep your CoM supported? You stay "balanced" right? The drill taught you how to move your feet so you could traverse the bumps and align to the forces to support your CoM …or position your feet in anticipation to support you/direct you or however that needs related (see Josh's posts), yes? Did you make sudden moves to push your feet forward and pull them back, or did you move continuously as you went from crest to trough to crest to stay in balance? You likely moved continuously and kept the forces aligned like Stickman does and maybe never felt like you actively backpedalled because in doing so you focused on moving forward across the slope. Remember Back Pedalling is a perspective from a given frame of reference and is really caused by the relative forward rates of motion of our CoM as compared to our feet …both continue moving forward down the hill all the time, but the rates each moves down the hill varies - either by their speed changing (mogul traverse) or their path (reaching out to the apex of the turn) or a combination of both.
....
Best,

Chris

 

Chris, you are talking about paying attention to the COM and where it's going and prioritizing that line.  If you sense the line your COM is taking, and if you focus on keeping that line as smooth and as flowing as possible, then yes, you'll flow like water down a streambed and not feel the feet pushing and pulling.  Would that this were as easy as pie.  

post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Here are some drill sequences using this movement pattern (pushing and pulling two feet together using muscle action):

 

Stand on flat snow.  Push both feet forward and pull both feet aft.  Don't fall over.

Slide straight down a shallow pitch.  Push both feet forward and pull both feet aft.  Don't fall over.

Make round turns on that shallow pitch, pushing both feet forward and pulling them back while turning.  Getting good!  

Take it up the hill.  Make medium round turns on gentle terrain, pushing both feet forward and pulling them back between turns, then through entire turns.  Very good now!

This is still a drill; it encourages versatility, and prepares you for recoveries.  But would anyone want to ski this way?  No, but it's worth doing to increase balance awareness.

 

Another application of the two footed push-pull:  stand across the hill; sideslip down.  Push both feet forward and sideslip backwards down.  Pull both feet back and slideslip forwards down.  Do this backie-forthy and you've got one version of falling leaf.  As a drill this illuminates the impact of being forward or back on flattened sliding skis.  This is not just a drill; it's actually useful in some tight situations....  (Falling leaf can be accomplished by opening and closing ankles as well, but that does not involve pushing and pulling the feet which is my topic.)

 

Let's up the ante:  do the two-footed push-pull thing while skiing along on a groomer, but add vertical "oomph" at the end of the forward push.  Propel the skis up into the air!  Pull them back behind you while they're in the air, and put them down behind your hips, tips first.  You've got dolphin turns!  A très-cool trick involving serious athleticism, but still in essence a drill.

 

Let's up the ante another way: on a shallow pitch do the two footed push-pull, but add rotary.  Pull them back behind your hips, then push them way out to the side and around to in front of you.  Then pull them back and push them forward and around on the other side.  Pull back, push out and around to the front, pull back and push out and around on the other side.  Keep them flat enough to slide them around muscularly in a very-very-short-radius turn under an upright torso.  You're moving your feet in a sideways figure eight beneath your hips.  Bumpers do this drill on groomers to prepare for skiing the zipper line. (Can't find video right now but I know there are plenty out there.) 

 

All these are variations on the two-footed push-pull drill; usually they are not ways to ski. They are not efficient; they are athletic and elevate the heart rate.  They do not focus on flow.  

Once you are skiing with one leg long and the other short, the two-footed push-pull action doesn't work so well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adjusting the feet fore/aft is critical when skiing in 3-D.  ALL of your examples are 2-D. 

 

We get 3-D when skiing in bumps/crud/powder obviously....AND when skiing high performance even on flat/groomed terrain due to virtual bump.

 

Your examples of moderate turns, on moderate terrain at moderate speed....are 2-D. 

 

 

 

 

As skiers move from intermediates to experts, we can no longer hold the simplifying assumption that we can view skiing in 2-D....it must be considered in 3-D.

 

 

 

Re-read Cgeib, Josh and Zentue's posts from this context.

 

 

 

post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 

So what's your point?  Consider me dumb, and please explain.  I'm game.

post #22 of 28

On 2D terrain, your skis are only dealing with resistance underfoot. In 3d terrain, you need to be able to overcome resistance from in front of you, rather than just under you.

 

Pretend you have your feet under your body and are "centered" vertically. You approach a bump. If you stay centered vertically, your upper body will keep moving downhill thanks to momentum, but your skis will slow down (or stop) thanks to friction and resistance. If you are moving your feet forward prior to reaching the bump, your upper body catches up as your feet turn around (or up) the bump. 

 

Now pretend you're in powder. There's all kinds of forces tugging and stopping your lower body. If you can't move your feet forward when you hit resistance from that snow, you'll topple and be swimming :) 

 

 

Even on 2D terrain, as skidude mentioned, mobility becomes more and more relevant at higher speeds as we start to experience more of a "virtual bump". We have to start getting our skis out a bit in front of us through the end of the turn as our feet will slow down and our body keeps moving. 

post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 

Granted, doing two-footed push-pull drills on groomers helps folks get ready for off piste skiing.  

But some have indicated that pushing and pulling the feet is good for all offensive turns, and Skidude is saying it's a way of dealing with the virtual bump.

 

I am referring to an active muscular movement, as in the drills described above; pushing feet forward and pulling feet backward.  Active, not passive.  Two-footed.     

Is anyone out there muscularly pushing and pulling their feet fore and aft, actively backpedalling on the groomed, to deal with the virtual bump or for any other reason?
 

post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

....

What happens when you traverse across a mogul field and do it? Like Stickman is doing? Do you fall forward and fall back or does your active movement keep your CoM supported? You stay "balanced" right? The drill taught you how to move your feet so you could traverse the bumps and align to the forces to support your CoM …or position your feet in anticipation to support you/direct you or however that needs related (see Josh's posts), yes? Did you make sudden moves to push your feet forward and pull them back, or did you move continuously as you went from crest to trough to crest to stay in balance? You likely moved continuously and kept the forces aligned like Stickman does and maybe never felt like you actively backpedalled because in doing so you focused on moving forward across the slope. Remember Back Pedalling is a perspective from a given frame of reference and is really caused by the relative forward rates of motion of our CoM as compared to our feet …both continue moving forward down the hill all the time, but the rates each moves down the hill varies - either by their speed changing (mogul traverse) or their path (reaching out to the apex of the turn) or a combination of both.

....

Best,


Chris

Chris, you are talking about paying attention to the COM and where it's going and prioritizing that line.  If you sense the line your COM is taking, and if you focus on keeping that line as smooth and as flowing as possible, then yes, you'll flow like water down a streambed and not feel the feet pushing and pulling.  Would that this were as easy as pie.  

I know some who would say that everything we do with the feet and legs is done in support of / to direct our CoM.

What do you give priority to?

How do you place your feet where you need them to be if not by using your muscles?
post #25 of 28

LF what everybody is trying to say is in bumps or the virtual bumps you don't use muscle power to move your feet back and forth.  For every action there is a reaction and pushing and pulling the feet with muscle power is very upsetting to the flow of the center of mass.  Instead use gravity and momentum instead of muscle power. To the casual observer the motions are the same, where the power comes from is different and how it feels to the skier is entirely different.

 

Using gravity and momentum feels like reaching instead of pushing the feet forward and G force pushing back instead of pulling.

 

I can describe something you can do without snow to make the point.

 

Put your ski boots on, get your poles and find a steep embankment.  It is important in this exercise to clear the area by searching 360 degrees in all directions to assure yourself that you will not end up on You Tube by some snide neighbor.

 

Start with your legs short leg/long leg with your feet across the fall line and your hips facing down hill.  Get your pole ready to touch beside  and just ahead of your feet.  Take a deep breath through your nose and get tall.  Your cm will be starting down hill.  When your cm crosses your feet touch the pole and let your legs retract.  The falling cm will let you pick your feet up enough to turn your legs in the hip sockets and land in short leg/long leg the other direction all without affecting the cm very much.  At this point you are once again tall and the cm well uphill from your feet.  Let the ground push you back towards flexion and slow the cm a bit as your cm once again crosses your feet and you touch the pole. As the cm crosses let the cm continue dropping and let the legs come up.

 

Continue this way down the embankment.  You will descend the embankment much safer and faster than any other way. Whenever I go down an embankment this is the way I do it even in street shoes and no poles.

 

Now you might think that letting your feet leave the ground for the jump must be pulling the feet up with a lot of muscle power but remember,  your cm is crossing and you are gaining space between your cm and the ground.  Whether you use muscle power or not your feet are not going to stay on the ground so let them retract until they come off by themselves.

 

When your feet hit the ground again you have momentum. Push back against it like you are hitting the ground after jumping off a stool. You are not pulling your feet back towards you the ground and gravity are pushing your feet back towards you. It should almost feel like retraction because you are not stopping the cm or pushing it laterally out down the slope.  You are slowing the cm until the cm catches up to your feet in relation to the slope.

 

Your center of mass speed should increase and slow but not by huge amounts.  You should time things to achieve flow.

 

You can do the same thing in street shoes down a staircase but its more intimidating than a short steep embankment.

 

I hope that you can see from this exercise that pushing the feet downhill is impossible and so is pulling them back up hill.  There is way to much friction under your feet on dirt.

 

Good luck, feels like rippin the zipper line.

 

When you are done send us the link to the video your neighbor shot for You Tube.:)

post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Is anyone out there muscularly pushing and pulling their feet fore and aft, actively backpedalling on the groomed, to deal with the virtual bump or for any other reason?
 

 

Yes.

 

All good skiers actively manage where their feet are throughout the turn.  As cgeib points out...how do you move without using your muscles?  However as Pierre points out, since there are other forces at play, the actual fore/aft movement is not nearly as straining on the muscles as it may appear when you do it statically.

 

 

 

 

As for "backpedalling", I have written this before - I don't use that analogy as it just doesn't work for me.  That is not to say it isn't valid, as I know it works for lots of others....but it is just an analogy designed to make understanding easier...if it isn't doing that - ditch it, and find another analogy that does. 

post #27 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
 

LF what everybody is trying to say is in bumps or the virtual bumps you don't use muscle power to move your feet back and forth.  For every action there is a reaction and pushing and pulling the feet with muscle power is very upsetting to the flow of the center of mass.  Instead use gravity and momentum instead of muscle power. To the casual observer the motions are the same, where the power comes from is different and how it feels to the skier is entirely different.

 

Using gravity and momentum feels like reaching instead of pushing the feet forward and G force pushing back instead of pulling.

 

I can describe something you can do without snow to make the point.

 

Put your ski boots on, get your poles and find a steep embankment.  It is important in this exercise to clear the area by searching 360 degrees in all directions to assure yourself that you will not end up on You Tube by some snide neighbor.

 

Start with your legs short leg/long leg with your feet across the fall line and your hips facing down hill.  Get your pole ready to touch beside  and just ahead of your feet.  Take a deep breath through your nose and get tall.  Your cm will be starting down hill.  When your cm crosses your feet touch the pole and let your legs retract.  The falling cm will let you pick your feet up enough to turn your legs in the hip sockets and land in short leg/long leg the other direction all without affecting the cm very much.  At this point you are once again tall and the cm well uphill from your feet.  Let the ground push you back towards flexion and slow the cm a bit as your cm once again crosses your feet and you touch the pole. As the cm crosses let the cm continue dropping and let the legs come up.

 

Continue this way down the embankment.  You will descend the embankment much safer and faster than any other way. Whenever I go down an embankment this is the way I do it even in street shoes and no poles.

 

Now you might think that letting your feet leave the ground for the jump must be pulling the feet up with a lot of muscle power but remember,  your cm is crossing and you are gaining space between your cm and the ground.  Whether you use muscle power or not your feet are not going to stay on the ground so let them retract until they come off by themselves.

 

When your feet hit the ground again you have momentum. Push back against it like you are hitting the ground after jumping off a stool. You are not pulling your feet back towards you the ground and gravity are pushing your feet back towards you. It should almost feel like retraction because you are not stopping the cm or pushing it laterally out down the slope.  You are slowing the cm until the cm catches up to your feet in relation to the slope.

 

Your center of mass speed should increase and slow but not by huge amounts.  You should time things to achieve flow.

 

You can do the same thing in street shoes down a staircase but its more intimidating than a short steep embankment.

 

I hope that you can see from this exercise that pushing the feet downhill is impossible and so is pulling them back up hill.  There is way to much friction under your feet on dirt.

 

Good luck, feels like rippin the zipper line.

 

When you are done send us the link to the video your neighbor shot for You Tube.:)

Pierre, I'll go try this.  Honestly, I've been in the back yard in boots and skis on grass trying to do hop turns lately, unsuccessfully I might say here in public, but what's to lose? 

Maybe this dryland drill will help with those hop turns.  Shall I wear my helmet?

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