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What's wrong with a skidded turn. - Page 6

post #151 of 176
I think we all do a hybred turn a lot of the time. Not a pure carve and not a pure skid.
post #152 of 176
Thread Starter 

Of course we can also do a pure carve with less g-force.  If I'm on my short radius skis (which is a lot these days), I tend to make a series of turns down the fall line and then turn up hill to get back to the design speed of the skis, before continuing back down.

post #153 of 176

Why not make the same arc left and right at a constant speed? 

post #154 of 176

Context is everything. Ghost, like me in 2013-2014, skis on 720 vertical feet of mostly groomers in Ontario. The realities of all-mountain skiing don't even come into the picture unless you go out of your way to make it happen. Even the steepest of runs, Elevator Shaft, is only steep for a few seconds before it flattens out (and even then, it's more like the top of a Whistler groomed black). And bumps are groomed out of 95% of the runs, so you're left with boilerplate. 

 

I don't mean to be a big b!tch or to rain on the carving parade or to crap on our terrain; it's as good as you make it. And carving can be loads of fun. I'm just saying that context is everything. 

post #155 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 

Why not make the same arc left and right at a constant speed? 

If you arc it well, you convert vertical elevation into speed, with minimal losses to friction, increasing speed as you descend, and you quickly reach a speed that is above the design speed of the ski your are on (unless you are on a speed ski).  

post #156 of 176

I love all this "most efficient way to get down the hill" stuff. Wouldn't that be straight-lining? Or at least only turning when required because of trail turns?

 

Ok, no, the most efficient way down (a substantially vertically-gifted mountain w/ tall enough prominence) is BASE jumping.

 

The second you bend the ski you're losing efficiency. You're losing efficiency as the ski is loaded and then again when it is unloaded. If you're controlling your speed in any way by carving, you're losing efficiency. And every carved turn controls speed, because every change in direction controls speeds (even if you're accelerating the whole time, you're accelerating at a slower rate than if you kept the tips pointed down the fall line).

 

A carved turn might be the most efficient way to make certain (read: tight enough) changes in direction when required to do so in order to stay on a trail because of trail shape. But that would imply that you're straighlining when you can, and making irregularly spaced, non-uniform carved turns when required.

 

That's not an argument against carving. Carve away if it gives you joy. Skid away too. But I can only read "most efficient way down the mountain" so many times.

 

Last time I checked, efficiency is not what drives recreational skiers to ski... until we're talking about ski mountaineering and the efficiency in question involves the uphill. 

post #157 of 176
In a race if you skid you will lose the race, on the hill do what is needed, stability is what counts.
Yes some times on easy trails turning just enough to turn with the trail works well, if you are in a slow zone just don't let the patrol see you using the slow signs as gates. LOL
post #158 of 176
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost View Post


It feels better...  ...Cutting is better than tearing.  Discuss. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper View Post
 

Now there are 63,962 posts on Epic on the importance of carving.

 

An Epic paucity.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

Well, this thread has now gone on for five pages now and I for one am not sure what I've learned.

 

If you learned anything from this thread you're a genius.

post #159 of 176

I learned that this is another example of why I stay far away from the technique area (where this thread should be)  

post #160 of 176

Every time we talk about skidding, we get off topic.  Skidding is an important skill.

post #161 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

Every time we talk about skidding, we get off topic.  Skidding is an important skill.

True. That and the false dichotomy that there is the one true way, "the carve", and everything else is skidding.
post #162 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

 

No closet here, as Trekchick so kindly pointed out in another thread:

 

http://epicski.onthesnow.com/t/56600/my-name-is-bob-and-im-a-skid

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

Well, this thread has now gone on for five pages now and I for one am not sure what I've learned.

 

Personally, I don't think there's ANYTHING wrong with a skidded turn.  I ski on a big, world-famous mountain nearly every day of every season.  I hardly EVER see ANYone making what I would call fully-carved, arc-to-arc turns down any of our runs.  That includes a lot of former World Cup and Olympic calibre racers who also ski here every day and who KNOW how to carve.  Our runs are either too steep, too narrow, too bumpy, or too crowded (at a place that nearly everyone agrees is NOT crowded) to safely allow the kind of speed that fully-carved turns generate.

 

So as to the question of what's wrong with skidded turns?  I'd say absolutely nothing.  They're what allow most skiers to ski safely and non-threateningly down most of the runs at most of the serious ski areas in the US (I can't speak for the rest of the world).

 

I would invite those of you who carve all of your turns all of the time to come visit the Jackson Hole tram (or the Snowbird tram or the Squaw Valley tram).  I would love to watch the show.

 

Sorry, but this whole I-carve-my-turns-why-don't-you sets me on edge (so to speak).

So Bob........

Think anyone is paying attention? 

 

Skidding as a tool can and will open up a bigger part of the mountain. 

post #163 of 176

TC please let this die a natural death, I am pretty sure I read that there is a DNR on it  :D

post #164 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
 

TC please let this die a natural death, I am pretty sure I read that there is a DNR on it  :D

 

That's just the coming Helmet thread talking to ya. 

post #165 of 176

I'm so confused.....  

post #166 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

Well, this thread has now gone on for five pages now and I for one am not sure what I've learned.

 

Personally, I don't think there's ANYTHING wrong with a skidded turn.  I ski on a big, world-famous mountain nearly every day of every season.  I hardly EVER see ANYone making what I would call fully-carved, arc-to-arc turns down any of our runs.  That includes a lot of former World Cup and Olympic calibre racers who also ski here every day and who KNOW how to carve.  Our runs are either too steep, too narrow, too bumpy, or too crowded (at a place that nearly everyone agrees is NOT crowded) to safely allow the kind of speed that fully-carved turns generate.

 

So as to the question of what's wrong with skidded turns?  I'd say absolutely nothing.  They're what allow most skiers to ski safely and non-threateningly down most of the runs at most of the serious ski areas in the US (I can't speak for the rest of the world).

There you go again Bob...you just had to come in with a reality check. :)

 

If arcing all the time is so important, why is everyone and their grandfather making skis with rocker? Why are people getting into the tram holding skis that look like palm trees?

post #167 of 176

There's nothing wrong with a skidded turn if your scared shitless because the run is very steep.

post #168 of 176

Nothing

 

 

/thread

post #169 of 176

Nothing. In fact carving turns/skis cause me to have massive painful medial forefoot pressure which increases with speed and downhill gravity.  

 

This season I am going to try a wider turn radius ski that will allow me to do MORE skidded,steered,hockey stop,pivoted and buttered turns with a midfoot stance.  Sure I got custom footbeds and a good bootfitting with new boots last season that helped.  I noted when demoing skis that the more someone stated the skis were "easy to turn"  (narrow turn radius carvers) the  worst they were for pain and control.  I rather would enjoy skiing in comfort and to do some straightlining fun  than making those cute carves that hurt.

 

Looking forward to trying out the skis this Sunday on opening weekend.  Maybe I will be available to do a few scarved instead of carved turns as a bonus!

post #170 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by carvequest View Post

Nothing. In fact carving turns/skis cause me to have massive painful medial forefoot pressure which increases with speed and downhill gravity.  

This season I am going to try a wider turn radius ski that will allow me to do MORE skidded,steered,hockey stop,pivoted and buttered turns with a midfoot stance.  Sure I got custom footbeds and a good bootfitting with new boots last season that helped.  I noted when demoing skis that the more someone stated the skis were "easy to turn"  (narrow turn radius carvers) the  worst they were for pain and control.  I rather would enjoy skiing in comfort and to do some straightlining fun  than making those cute carves that hurt.

Looking forward to trying out the skis this Sunday on opening weekend.  Maybe I will be available to do a few scarved instead of carved turns as a bonus!

Sounds like much more of a boot than turn style issue.
post #171 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

Why are people getting into the tram holding skis that look like palm trees?

 

So they can carve, natch!   ;)

 

 

 

But wait, there's more...

 

  

 

"Ironically, working on your skidding will help your carving."


Edited by jc-ski - 11/17/13 at 6:54pm
post #172 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

But wait, there's more...

 

  

 

"Ironically, working on your skidding will help your carving."

 

 

:confused I think there are people I'd rather ski like...  

 

...like Tobin. For that matter, I think he gets the point across better that turning with your lower joints helps carving. 

 

post #173 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

But wait, there's more...

 

  

 

"Ironically, working on your skidding will help your carving."

 

This is a great drill, very much worth working on.  

Pivoting/skidding the skis around the corner during the top/middle of the turn and then getting the skis to carve pencil-thin lines at the bottom of the turn is not easy.  

Notice he does not tell his viewers how to make the switch happen, but you can see the skis speed up as they begin carving across the trail. 

I've found increasing the edge angle by quickly adding more ankle-tipping - combined with moving the outside foot back a bit to weight its shovel more - does the trick. YMMV.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 11/18/13 at 5:15am
post #174 of 176

Shouldn't these vids be in the "Pivot Under Foot" thread? (So we can hear how ridiculous they are? :rolleyes)

For that skid, then carve drill, you can also skid, then steer uphill - dowhill, then carve to make it even more interesting. Essentially it's a stivot move.

 

Where's Snow Valley?

post #175 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

Where's Snow Valley?

 

http://goo.gl/maps/sr4Cq

 

http://www.skisnowvalley.com/contact/directions

 

Sorry to belabor the point, but "skillful edging is more than just carving"...

 

 

Just watch World Cup Racers or Wayne Wong in the videos you put in your excellent post and it's abundantly clear, it's the blending of skills that makes for great skiing!

 

I wish ski schools would teach ballet!

post #176 of 176

So Snow Valley is in Ontario! Bleeping Eh!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

I wish ski schools would teach ballet!

I thought Ballet Schools taught ballet.

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