or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Backpedalling - seen from the front
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Backpedalling - seen from the front

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

originally posted by Bob Barnes:

"Ugly from the front" (--Lyle Lovett)

In an earlier discussion of this "backpedaling" animation, someone asked if I could show the front view of the same thing. That's a little harder, given my non-existent artistic talents, but I did come up with these two animations that show it somewhat:

 

 

 

 

 

 


Best regards,
Bob

 

post #2 of 20
Thread Starter 

Bob, I just stole the post above from an old thread that seems to be currently locked. I'm bringing it out so folks can comment.  I was the one who asked for these animations, Bob.  Thanks for finding/making them!

post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 

Comparing the two animations, I see some differences in the movement patterns.

Anyone want to discuss the differences?  

post #4 of 20

I think the red guy is skiing much bigger bumps.

post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
 

I think the red guy is skiing much bigger bumps.

:rotflmao:

post #6 of 20
I was going to say "one's in color, the other in B&W." smile.gif
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
 

I think the red guy is skiing much bigger bumps.

Bigger bumps, but also rounder line.

 

Trippy b&w figure is skiing more direct, controlling speed more through sucking up speed thru absorption, and shovels end up in the air at max absorption even though he's not absorbing all that deeply.  Since some people have gotten upset when I refer to ski shovels, I will note specifically that the shovels are attached to the forebody of the ski, which are also in the air.

 

Trippy b&w figure is also more outside ski dominant and showing lower edge angles.  Edit: and, a different pole plant.


Edited by CTKook - 10/27/13 at 9:10am
post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 

If there were a third animation below these two showing a competition bumper, would that encourage some interesting comparisons?

post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

If there were a third animation below these two showing a competition bumper, would that encourage some interesting comparisons?

 

 

.

 

You could view this as sort of a funnel:  red guy, trippy guy, Chuck Martin, Patrick Denneen.  Tighter and more direct as you go down the funnel.  Different bumps in all, so to make this more robust, you'd want to grab all four and run video on 3-4 laps of 3-4 different runs with different types of bumps, but at the end of the day, you're still gonna see that funnel.

post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 

I'm seeing less and less lateral separation between upperbody and lowerbody.  Line progresses from very round to less round to nonexistent.

Paying attention to where the knees are relative to the hips is interesting. 

post #11 of 20

What's lateral separation? angulation and inclination? 

post #12 of 20
Thread Starter 

Yep, that's what I meant... how far out to the side the skis get from the torso.

post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Yep, that's what I meant... how far out to the side the skis get from the torso.

Agreed re 2-4 (trippy guy thru Deneen).

 

Red guy is so banked that he doesn't look like he has much displacement -- given that the animation shows both skis loaded as opposed to him being primarily on the inside ski, the animation almost suggests he's either in a super-tight gully or old-school small pipe, or in a very rutted stubbies set that's grippy enough to allow you to ride the ruts like berms.  Generally you'd need at very least more vertical separation to ski that line without a continual rut, with both skis loaded like that.

post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 

Red guy screen shots from Bob Barnes' first animation.

Those are indeed big bumps.

 

post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Red guy screen shots from Bob Barnes' first animation.

Those are indeed big bumps.

 

Screen grabs 2 and 3 are implicitly on the shoulder and then trough between the two big bumps, but are still showing the right ski well above the left and equal loading of skis while the skier is banking.  With no wall to pressure against, given where the skier is between bumps, the skis actually show a fair degree of edge angle.  My point regarding a rut or even gully being needed for this is that those things, equal loading of carving skis with little vertical separation, and banking, are going to be very difficult mechanically to do in a bump environment, not to mention hard on knees.

 

If you back off on the edge angles in this animation, you could get to sustainable balance and roughly the same turn shape and weight distribution through a Clendenin type of drifting turn.

post #16 of 20
That's a lot to garner from a couple of crappy (sorry Bob... I don't really mean crappy, but you know what I mean.... I hope smile.gif ) little gif animations. I mean, we're they on bump skis, or all mountain mid fats? East coast, or west? Josh, or Seg? Bogner or Armada?
post #17 of 20

One of the differences between the competition bumper and the other two  is the comp bumper is being judge for keeping the legs together so no light shows through.  A stupid carryover from the hot dog days. I ski them with my feet apart.

 

The guy in red does not have that much edge angle.  In the animation the snow has been removed.  The bumps are big and the skier is doing a pretty good job.  The b&w  skier is skiing smaller bumps and the video speed looks slowed down or the skier is tired.

post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
 

One of the differences between the competition bumper and the other two  is the comp bumper is being judge for keeping the legs together so no light shows through.  A stupid carryover from the hot dog days. I ski them with my feet apart.

 

Actually bumpers aren't required to keep legs together, they just need them with constant spacing (or, together, which is constant).

post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

originally posted by Bob Barnes:

"Ugly from the front" (--Lyle Lovett)

In an earlier discussion of this "backpedaling" animation, someone asked if I could show the front view of the same thing. That's a little harder, given my non-existent artistic talents, but I did come up with these two animations that show it somewhat:

 

 

 

 

 

 


Best regards,
Bob

 

 

 

As Pierre points out, the bumps are bigger in the red jacket animation. IMO, these types of turns, getting on the edges by dropping the hip takes longer to complete. So it may be worthwhile when the bump formation is widely space. Tho, I have not seen any skiers hold a direct line in a tight bump formation by constantly dropping the hips in this manner, they usually have to bail and transverse to another line to scrub some speed. 

post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
 

 

 

As Pierre points out, the bumps are bigger in the red jacket animation. IMO, these types of turns, getting on the edges by dropping the hip takes longer to complete. So it may be worthwhile when the bump formation is widely space. Tho, I have not seen any skiers hold a direct line in a tight bump formation by constantly dropping the hips in this manner, they usually have to bail and transverse to another line to scrub some speed.

The skier in the red jacket is not really dropping the hips.  What is really happening is absorption of the bumps with flexion of the legs.  Speed control comes from two ways.  Using the face of the bump to slow down the body mass similar to jumping off a bench and landing on the ground.  You stop or slow down the body by absorbing  the ground.  The second way is using some patience and slowing the pivot into the fall line down.  Speed is nothing more than distance divided by time. By slowing down the feet and timing the pivot the skier is adding more time with very little additional distance. There is very little actual edging going on for speed control.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Backpedalling - seen from the front