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# You Don't Need To Stone Grind Skis. Here is another option. - Page 7

The casual observer might say that which angle you're talking about could be clearer--side bevel to snow, base bevel to snow, base bevel to side bevel, base plane to edge, any of the above to upper leg, lower leg, ad infinitum. I get the impression that Jacque is thinking about different angles than most on the thread. I know I've gotten confused several times as the focus jumps around. But then again, I'm not the best with numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky

I would have thought the ski with the 88.5 effective angle would dig in deeper once it started digging.  No?

You get a gold star ; the more acute the angle the easier it digs in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug

The casual observer might say that which angle you're talking about could be clearer--side bevel to snow, base bevel to snow, base bevel to side bevel, base plane to edge, any of the above to upper leg, lower leg, ad infinitum. I get the impression that Jacque is thinking about different angles than most on the thread. I know I've gotten confused several times as the focus jumps around. But then again, I'm not the best with numbers.

Convergence of both edges into snow.  Ski on high edge angle.  The pointy part, like the edge of a knife.  At that point I supposed that a 2 & 5 would rail in deeper than a .5 & 3.  From what they are proving is that a .5 & 5 would rail better.  In other words would be sharper once the ski was on a high edge angle.   In other words less base bevel combined with higher side bevel is better to dig deeper into the snow when a ski is at a high edge angle.  So then a 0 base and a 5 side must be the really good if the ski is on a high edge angle.  The whole reference was about WC racers who are capable of producing high edge angles of the skis while making a carved turn.  The main point seemed to be that less base bevel is better and creates a sharper edge when the ski is way up on edge.  Also that a long base bevel when the ski is on a high edge angle  would be really bad.  Thing is as they have pointed out, I just don't get it.  I do know a blunt knife won't cut too well though.  Sharpen your knives!

Slice and dice baby!!!!

zenny

hahahaha

^^^  Right on!  No matter how you slice it skiing can be a lot of fun!  Scrape it, tune it, grind it, brush it, wax it ,sand it, file it, stone it, polish it, ski it!  It's all good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques

I believe that race skis have thinner edges because steel is slow and also it could be that thinner edges may flex more readily.  However, that was not what I was talking about.  I was saying that a thinner edge would have, by default a shorter bevel.  A thicker edge by default, would have a longer bevel.  True or false.

What is funny race skis are stiffer and have a less lively feel compared to non race skis, unless they are worked in the realm that they should be.  Which is why race skis need to be skied!!!!  Good skiers automatically give the correct input and feel the response on race skis no matter the speed.

The wider edges slower maybe slightly....definitely from some from a skiers mind set, and that in racing matters more than what is actually happening.

Yes, but here are talking about hairs.....If I want the same bevel length on a non race ski I just put a little less cut in to it and leave the other portion of the edge flat with the base, but why worry about it as the non-race ski won't give the response of the race ski and the extra effort is not worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques

I believe that race skis have thinner edges because steel is slow and also it could be that thinner edges may flex more readily.  However, that was not what I was talking about.  I was saying that a thinner edge would have, by default a shorter bevel.  A thicker edge by default, would have a longer bevel.  True or false.

What is funny race skis are stiffer and have a less lively feel compared to non race skis, unless they are worked in the realm that they should be.  Which is why race skis need to be skied!!!!  Good skiers automatically give the correct input and feel the response on race skis no matter the speed.

The wider edges slower maybe slightly....definitely from some from a skiers mind set, and that in racing matters more than what is actually happening.

Yes, but here are talking about hairs.....If I want the same bevel length on a non race ski I just put a little less cut in to it and leave the other portion of the edge flat with the base, but why worry about it as the non-race ski won't give the response of the race ski and the extra effort is not worth it.

This thought was supposition only.  I guess I should have changed that to something like :  Could it be that thinner edges may flex more readily?  (Anyone remember the edges on a Hexel Sundance II ski)  As far as you comment about the length of a base bevel, I have no idea why someone would want to do that.  I was just pointing out that the thicker the edge, the longer the bevel by default.

I knew I would get worked over on this instructional video when I posted the thread, but man, as it grew into different things, it was like more chances for folks to work me even harder.  I guess one better not make any suppositions on Epic Ski unless they want to be dragged over the coals.  It always seems to be some big competition  about who knows better than the other guy.

If one watches my tuning, waxing, brushing etc. videos they will learn IF THEY LISTEN, that I never claim that my ways are the only or best ways in the world.  There are times when I say that what I do works really good for me.  What works good for one, may not be what works for another.  Also don't ever use a word wrongly, even if it is obvious what you mean, because these folks will work your punk butt.  It's like they are just looking for some little petty thing to have an opportunity to be the "big shot."

Jacques,

I've read the posts and I don't think its about showing who knows more or less.  Some of the comments you are making are not as clear as you think (and yes it does happen to all of us).

I think that a lot of the posts have pointed out some very solid basic information that you seem to be questioning with round about arguments that are in the wrong direction, hence the fall out that you are receiving.

So back to your original post, most skis that have burnt bases are likely hollow with high edges.....these need a base grind (or file) to lower the edges....Scrapping with just worsen this condition.  If the bases are high generally I would be looking at other issues such as ski failure (one example water infiltration) which is lifting the base before even thinking scrapping.

Everything else after this really deals with how to finish the ski for the best performance.

I think you may have good skills, now understand how and why to use them correctly, the people commenting are actually being very helpful and very correct in what information they are providing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier

Jacques,

I've read the posts and I don't think its about showing who knows more or less.  Some of the comments you are making are not as clear as you think (and yes it does happen to all of us).

I think that a lot of the posts have pointed out some very solid basic information that you seem to be questioning with round about arguments that are in the wrong direction, hence the fall out that you are receiving.

So back to your original post, most skis that have burnt bases are likely hollow with high edges.....these need a base grind (or file) to lower the edges....Scrapping with just worsen this condition.  If the bases are high generally I would be looking at other issues such as ski failure (one example water infiltration) which is lifting the base before even thinking scrapping.

Everything else after this really deals with how to finish the ski for the best performance.

I think you may have good skills, now understand how and why to use them correctly, the people commenting are actually being very helpful and very correct in what information they are providing.

Okay, it's all good, but here we go again. I did not ever say that much info was not helpful.  Many folks read this stuff, and it might help them.

As far as your comments above about hollow with high edges. etc.  Maybe you did not notice the first thing I did to the skis was to bevel down the base edges.  That does lower the edges!  The bevel was carried into the plastic. (long bevel).  Many ski get a base high condition just from wear as well.  The way I scraped the ski was just fine and only improved the condition of the ski in every way.  The dry base plastic was removed and the ski was brought into a much flatter condition as well.  I must say you have had some great things said here, but you are really reaching now.

The other thing is it becomes very obvious to me when one makes a comment that they did not LISTEN to the entire video.  People watch a bit, skip forward, etc, then make their own suppositions.

That's because videos take too long to get information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky

That's because videos take too long to get information.

Jacques' sure did...IMHO.  It would be a lot more effective if it was cut down to maybe five minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky

That's because videos take too long to get information.

It's because people want instant gratification and have no attention span whatsoever.  Let them watch the 2 min. tuners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky

That's because videos take too long to get information.

Jacques' sure did...IMHO.  It would be a lot more effective if it was cut down to maybe five minutes.

Some sure are long, but no way "I" could have done them shorter!

You want to be the equivalent of a cooking show on TV rather than provide fast info. As a consumer of information, I want my answers the quickest way I can get them. That's not video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky

You want to be the equivalent of a cooking show on TV rather than provide fast info. As a consumer of information, I want my answers the quickest way I can get them. That's not video.

Different strokes for different folks!  I as well have done a ton of reading on subjects I wanted to learn about.  My father in law can't hear as good as he used to.  He loves foreign movies now because he always uses captions!  Anyway, I respect your comment.  Nice observations.  Speaking of cooking, I've been cooking up a huge pot of pasta sauce!  It is starting to smell really good now!  Yum yum!

The correct method of sharpening a scraper if you are going to show it is http://woodgears.ca/scraper/,  while this is for woodworking, the same applies for the ski scrapers for a really tuning scraper edge as you are looking for a flat scraped surface finish. Might as well call it as I see it.

Ha, he did the presentation in less than 5mins
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier

The correct method of sharpening a scraper if you are going to show it is http://woodgears.ca/scraper/,  while this is for woodworking, the same applies for the ski scrapers for a really tuning scraper edge as you are looking for a flat scraped surface finish. Might as well call it as I see it.

Ha, he did the presentation in less than 5mins

Yea, okay, whatever you say.  I don't need to get overly concerned about a scraper that is a few mils from "perfect".  It's just skis I'm working on.  In the video I state that my scraper may not be "perfect" true.  I also state that a ski does not need to be "perfect"  flat.  Thanks for the link though.  Are you sure maybe 5 minutes was too long for that?  Be good!

Edit:  Maybe you should wax like him too!  Check the comments on YT.  They ream him a new one too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune

Slice and dice baby!!!!

zenny

Above times 2

Gotta love this small world.

My current 21 m GS skis came from a  Muleski connection.  The pair before that came from a Scott Holmer connection.

(Both were 1-3 bevels)

I came close to buying some Eric Holmer skis but the 16-24 din bindings scared me off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muleski

Jacques, a thought for you.........

You mention the Race Place frequently; you love their stuff. You live in Bend. I'm presuming that you know Scott Holmer, the owner, enough to at least strike up a conversation when you stop by there. He is a GREAT guy. His son, Eric, was a tremendous NorAm level speed skier.

^  16-24!  I guess he did not want a release!   That's just nuts!

ha, ya met Eric and Errol a few years ago when we had a w/c ski cross here - nice guys.

20 din bindings are the norm at this level btw - I used to have a set of comp 30's lying around, couldn't give away those clamps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques

Yea, okay, whatever you say.  I don't need to get overly concerned about a scraper that is a few mils from "perfect".  It's just skis I'm working on.  In the video I state that my scraper may not be "perfect" true.  I also state that a ski does not need to be "perfect"  flat.  Thanks for the link though.  Are you sure maybe 5 minutes was too long for that?  Be good!

Edit:  Maybe you should wax like him too!  Check the comments on YT.  They ream him a new one too.

Maybe you should. I tried the heat gun method, it's rahter awesome.

But in order not to hijack this thread (too late?), I created a new thread:

http://www.epicski.com/t/123320/waxing-with-a-heat-gun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques

Yea, okay, whatever you say.  I don't need to get overly concerned about a scraper that is a few mils from "perfect".  It's just skis I'm working on.  In the video I state that my scraper may not be "perfect" true.  I also state that a ski does not need to be "perfect"  flat.  Thanks for the link though.  Are you sure maybe 5 minutes was too long for that?  Be good!

Edit:  Maybe you should wax like him too!  Check the comments on YT.  They ream him a new one too.

Maybe you should. I tried the heat gun method, it's rahter awesome.

But in order not to hijack this thread (too late?), I created a new thread:

http://www.epicski.com/t/123320/waxing-with-a-heat-gun

It's not to late!  Why direct to another thread?  That is a spam hijack.  I use a hot box so I don't need a stinkin' heat gun.  Notice he is a smart guy, but does not brush out the board prior to waxing.  Always brush, hot scrape, or use some Swix Glide Wax Cleaner prior to waxing.  Or just wax the dirt and crap in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques

The title says it all.  The video will show you another way to flatten and remove old burned base material.  Grinding a ski can cause "creep" in the plastic. That is not good.  Therefore after a stone grind a ski needs a lot of work as well to finish off the grind, as stone grinding does produce lots of micro-hair.  A new grind needs to be smoothed and mellowed to get the grind to top performance.  There is no question that a proper structure for the given snow condition is paramount to a fast gliding ski. The science tells us a deeper structure for wet snow and a shallow structure for dry snow.  Most of us ski on all conditions throughout the course of a season.  So for the non racer most skis will have "universal" structure.  Not to deep, not to shallow.  Cross grinds are easier to turn for folks who don't do high edge angle carves.  Lineal grinds are what is found on most downhill race skis. A deep lineal ground ski will be very hard to "slarve" or slide, however it will be stable when running flat. In other words it won't wander.  That being said, a shallow lineal grind will be easy to turn a slarve type turn.  Easy to hockey stop.  It will slide sideways unlike a deep lineal grind.  Many folks have and use this method.  Here is a long video where I take you comprehensively through the entire process.  In order to learn one needs to listen to the entire length of the video.  Please don't make any "wise cracks" until you have truly listened to, and watched the whole thing.  Once you have done that feel free to fire away!     Also, please don't bother to tell me you have seen this posted in many other Threads.  I am aware of that, as I am the one who has posted it many times.

Thanks, Jacques

Consensus!

hi Jacques,

Thanks for those two videos on hand working your ski base. That's what I was looking for...to revive an old set of skis I want to use for spring skiing. I was at Mt Bachelor today and it was warm.

Lee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeroy151

hi Jacques,

Thanks for those two videos on hand working your ski base. That's what I was looking for...to revive an old set of skis I want to use for spring skiing. I was at Mt Bachelor today and it was warm.

Lee

Yea, for that super warm you need to be sure to leave the scraper burred so it imparts lots of structure.  You can also use some coarse sandpaper.  Another way is to use the edge of a file that is a square.  It's seems brutal, but then you buff it down a bit if needed.  Good luck Lee!

Scraping that base high ski with a 10 inch square edge file.
Edited by Leeroy151 - 4/16/16 at 8:32pm

Bottom ski just got base scraped, top ski waiting for my arms to work again.
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