or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Ski Towns: When did Cali get derailed?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ski Towns: When did Cali get derailed? - Page 4

post #91 of 123

Who cares about the snow? The only reason to come to Tahoe is to see Squaw's new home furnishings store.:D

 

But why do American women have huge arses? ;)

 

post #92 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post
 

I think we just found the third sure thing in life: Butthurt when someone disses your favorite ski area. ;)

 

Just messin...I do it, too :D

 

No actually, I don't give a crap. I actually prefer it if you think Tahoe sucks as I don't want you in my lift line, go to Colorado please.  

 

However anyone that quotes SKI magazine as source for anything needs to sober up. That magazine hasn't been relevant for years. 

post #93 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

This thread just nailed it.  California sucks.  Do not come here.  Our mountain biking, surfing and skiing are just terrible.  And we really can't compete with the "gnar" or the down-home culture of Vail (it's not phony one bit I tell you!), so don't bother and just go to Colorado.

 

I don't know why the real estate is so expensive since no one really wants to be here - it's a sheer paradox of economic reality.

 

The Eagles covered this in the song Hotel California.

post #94 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

This thread just nailed it.  California sucks.  Do not come here.  Our mountain biking, surfing and skiing are just terrible.  And we really can't compete with the "gnar" or the down-home culture of Vail (it's not phony one bit I tell you!), so don't bother and just go to Colorado.

 

I don't know why the real estate is so expensive since no one really wants to be here - it's a sheer paradox of economic reality.

 

Good job, good effort.

post #95 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

This thread just nailed it.  California sucks.  Do not come here.  Our mountain biking, surfing and skiing are just terrible.  And we really can't compete with the "gnar" or the down-home culture of Vail (it's not phony one bit I tell you!), so don't bother and just go to Colorado.

I don't know why the real estate is so expensive since no one really wants to be here - it's a sheer paradox of economic reality.

38 million misguided people. O, the humanity!
post #96 of 123

Many of the major California ski resorts have been in private ownership for decades, and only recently have become corporate entities that are trying to build out real estate and the "resort" experience.  The owners were independent renegade  enthusiasts / entrepreneurs that valued a ski experience very different from what Vail, Aspen and Park City promoted.  They also had a reputation for not being very concerned about planning, zoning or environmental restrictions.   The land around their resorts was controlled in large part by the Forest Service, or other private individuals.  There was no attempt to establish a uniform building code or theme, instead the focus was on cutting and building ski runs and the on-mountain amenities. Government and competing private interests were often at odds.  This is not conducive to "building a village".

 

Motels, shops and restaurants, permanent and vacation homes grew up around the major ski areas in response to the ski area presence, but not as a coordinated plan.  Over the last ten years, these original owners have died or retired and sold their dreams to corporate developers and mega ski resort management corps.  We have seen huge changes in the way they are being run and developed.  It's just a matter of time before the Sierra resorts become just as commercial as Park City, Vail and Aspen, but the independent ownership of the towns like Truckee, and Stateline will continue to exist and perhaps look incongruous to the "plan" the resorts might advocate.

 

I might add that if the Tahoe area was to be developed today, it would never happen.  Lake Tahoe and the surrounding ridges probably could have been a National Park if not for the extensive development already present in the 1930s.

post #97 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ske-Bum View Post
 

 

No actually, I don't give a crap. I actually prefer it if you think Tahoe sucks as I don't want you in my lift line, go to Colorado please.  

 

 

I could tell. 

post #98 of 123

The bike paths are going ahead thankfully because the free bus has been slashed.

 

http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/8690171-113/program-service-winter-ridership

 

All the expert planners need do now is make driving 25mph with chicanes and road barriers and make parking impossible at SV, and shares in free parking places like Vail Resorts and shares chinese bike and lycra  companies will skyrocket.

 

Not that long ago all the experts at the national planning conference were proclaiming in Slides  "Imagine arriving at the airport and never needing a car".  And they persisted with $290 bus seats (thanks to the taxpayer and the lift company helping the real estate arm make miney) despite ridership of 3500 people out of a preicted 950,000 of the 4,000,000 plane seats that use RenoTahoe. Good Lord, I wish I wish I had shares in the Kool Aid these clowns are drinking.

 

http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/8690171-113/program-service-winter-ridership

post #99 of 123

If we're talking about quaint old west ski towns, California doesn't have any.  That doesn't mean there aren't cool ski towns there to hang, they just don't fit that mold.  I don't need to stay at a Disney/Rockwell image, authentic or otherwise, to feel in touch with my surroundings and psyched for skiing.  

 

Mammoth is an example of a pretty cool place with its own identity. It's also sited at an incredible spot in the High Sierra with inspiring places around the bend, only one of which is Yosemite.  The Lake Tahoe resorts have a nice vibe in their Sierra niches.

 

Snowbird is an uphill drive from a blue collar city, the Cliff Lodge is a concrete monolith at war with its surroundings and chock full of brats.  Still, I love all of it probably because the skiing is sooo  good.

 

There are many other examples.  It's about the skiing.  If it's good then the town can probably serve, even South Lake Tahoe. 

post #100 of 123
Quote:
There are many other examples.  It's about the skiing.  If it's good then the town can probably serve, even South Lake Tahoe.  

+1  As I've noted before a lot of the great ski areas were founded in the middle of nowhere because the visionary figured out how good the skiing was.  Whistler, Snowbird, Mammoth and Vail come to mind.  The base areas evolved afterwards, in varied ways, but by definition with no history prior to the ski development.

post #101 of 123

Related question: 

 

California must have some cool base camp towns in the mountains, no? I'm thinking towns like Springdale, UT (Zion basecamp), Moab, etc, towns that look and feel similar to ski towns but with other outdoor attractions in place of a ski resort. 

post #102 of 123

I think the discussion was more about the actual villages right at the base of the mountain.  Because yes, there are good towns nearby.  For example, I like Truckee quite a bit myself and it's only 10 - 20 minutes by car to several different resorts.

post #103 of 123

Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is if the lack of good base villages in California is specific to skiing or is persistent throughout the mountains. For instance, I'd imagine Yosemite and the other NPs have base towns/villages just outside the borders. I've just never been to NoCal. 

post #104 of 123

It's weird to hear people harsh on CA resorts and diss the strip malls and new development because it seems to me that plagues most US ski towns. Even if they have an historic core there is so much bad development/sprawl in and around so many of them. A few places have done a great job but I wonder why more places don't use design/review, land use planning, zoning, etc to make sure what's around the historic center is more compatible or at least not awful and sprawling. Park City would be exhibit A for me--I first went in 1990 and was shocked when I went back a few years ago. Talk about derailed.

post #105 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

 For example, I like Truckee quite a bit myself and it's only 10 - 20 minutes by car to several different resorts.

 

27 Squaw Valley names including Robb Gaffney published this letter in the Sierra Sun Tribune Bonaza.

 

There's a little opposition to the 70 acre carpark being turned into carpaking for new condos with, perhaps, satelite parking bays from Tahoe Vista to Tahoe City to Truckee to Nstar, and out to Homewood and out to Reno Tahoe Airport....served this season by 3 fewer buses mainly in the morning and afternoon.

 

It'll be interesting to follow. Will the Alpine Meadows carpark be full very early? Will paid parking come in. What were those Aussies at Squaw for, the guys from the paid parking resorts with plumetting visitations and the massive $25m to $40m asset write downs whilst our IRS and SEC and cops poked into things.  Will Caldwell's construction trucks take up AM's carpark. Can the Counties and resorts keep subsidising buses to the tune of $290.14 per seat, or will Placer County wear the cost ultimately?

 

It'll be interesting to see what the locals' local expert resort planner comes up as an alternative.

 

http://unofficialalpine.com/?p=2171

post #106 of 123

^^ The Alpine Meadows lot already fills up pretty quick on powder days and most weekends.  So yeah, it'll be interesting.

post #107 of 123

Having grown up in Colorado and watched the I-70 sprawl take over everything, this whole thread is pretty amazing to me. 

On a weekday, I'd much rather be at Squaw than at Vail.  Even the Roaring Fork valley is unrecognizable to me these days.

I'd say California (at least northern Cali, never been to Mammoth) has done a good job of not allowing the mega-resorts to spread their sprawl down valley.

I think Olympic Valley has much more human scale than Vail (at the moment, although I understand that may change).

 

Having said all of that, it is nice to be a Tony Crocker 1, where I could walk to the lifts if I wasn't so lazy.

post #108 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by Girdwoodguy View Post

 

Even the Roaring Fork valley is unrecognizable to me these days.

 

 

Having said all of that, it is nice to be a Tony Crocker 1, where I could walk to the lifts if I wasn't so lazy.

 

But do you walk to the Double Muskie?

 

 

On the whole, I think Aspen's done a very good job with growth.  The trouble with the RFV,  is there are three different counties involved.   Pitkin, Eagle and Garfield, all have different priorities.  The further down valley you get, the more pro-development the government. But I also think the new Whole Foods development in El Jebel (Eagle Co.), is actually pretty nice.

 

RAFTA just upgraded the bus system to natural gas rapid transit, with dedicated bus lanes.  In high traffic times, it takes the same amount of time on the bus from Glenwood, as it does in a car.  If you can get just 25% of the worker bees out of their cars, the system will be a success.

 

One reason N. Tahoe's shuttle ridership is so low, is it's a bandaid approach.  Two routes a day,  for only 44 days a season.  How can anyone plan on riding that with such a limited schedule?

Eventually Tahoe's going to realize they need to get people out of their cars or it will kill the place. 

post #109 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post
 

Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is if the lack of good base villages in California is specific to skiing or is persistent throughout the mountains. For instance, I'd imagine Yosemite and the other NPs have base towns/villages just outside the borders. I've just never been to NoCal. 

 

From what I recall going to Yosemite when I was a kid, it's pretty isolated around there.  Some brief googling seems to confirm there are a couple tiny towns ~30 minutes away from the park and any serious population center is an hour plus drive.  I know that when Ansel Adams was camping up there in the early 20th century there was essentially no infrastructure -- he'd bring in a pack mule with a couple months worth of supplies.

 

The early 'gold rush' mining operations in CA were not way up in the mountains like in some other states, and there wasn't much other reason for anyone to be way up in the Sierras by choice back then.  A lot of the mining towns were along what's now Highway 49, to give you some idea of locations.

post #110 of 123

Dodge Ridge and Bear Valley are two perfect examples of ski areas that have to depend upon local support from nearby towns, all of which are small in population.  John Muir was the person responsible for bringing the Yosemite valley to the attention of Congress, and invited Teddy Roosevelt to accompany him there (Ansel Adams was born the year before the Muir-Roosevelt visit).  The later Adams photographs are still prized today.   Most mining was at lower altitudes for obvious reasons or was seasonal.  In fact, the surviving Donner party recuperated in Sutter's Fort. Sutter was a wheeler/dealer who was trying to find an utopia of some sort, and had a massive (for the day) farming and ranching operation.  Then Marshall, building a saw mill, found gold and Coloma was never the same.  Today California 4th graders make the pilgrimage to learn a little about state history.  Adults lucky enough to fly over Colorado and California ex-mining areas can see the remains of mining operations (dumps and tailing).  I think about one of the most interesting ski stories when passing the town of Kyburz on the way to Lake Tahoe: Spider Sabich.


Edited by quant2325 - 11/1/13 at 1:15pm
post #111 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHREDHEAD View Post
 

 

But do you walk to the Double Muskie?

 

 

 

The proper question is can I walk home ?

post #112 of 123

@JayT Good towns nearby? Truckee? Really? Almost the definition of strip mall (a nice strip mall though - isn't Start Haus the anchor of the whole strip?). Reno is so close to Hell that you can see Sparks. The only good thing in Sacramento is Governor Moonbeam. Tahoe City has the most potential but currently it has an unhappy vibe (to me at least - at least most people in Truckee are upbeat). North Tahoe needs to develop its own villages slopeside. (Hopefully with parking!)

 

@SHREDHEAD Funny how much opposition there is to developing Squaw's village that needs little auto involvement once you are there. And the attractions that might diversify the draw to Squaw and keep them out of the cars on the non powder days are even less palatable to some. A thoughtful development could be really spectacular. A scaled back condo expansion could be a disaster.

 

@JoeUT No West Yellowstone outside of Yosemite. It is in the middle of nowhere. The traffic does back up halfway out of nowhere, however. Maybe they need a giant parking structure disguised as a granite slab instead of removing the Awahnee swimming pool that is the size of two parking spaces. 

 

@quant2325 As a pilot who has flown my Cessna over the foothills quite a bit, I haven't seen any dumps and tailings of the old mines. Active mines are occasionally visible but widespread. 

Is Bear Valley actually going to open this year? My cousin (whose son works there) was concerned about the viability of the resort when we saw her this summer. @Tony Crocker 's ones aren't there enough?

I have interesting memories of chaperoning my 4th grade son in the gold country. My wife has better stories with the other son!

 

A ski town is only really necessary when the skiing is not fantastic. A well stocked liquor store can be found in most strip malls...

 

Eric

post #113 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post
 

@JayT Good towns nearby? Truckee? Really? Almost the definition of strip mall (a nice strip mall though - isn't Start Haus the anchor of the whole strip?). Reno is so close to Hell that you can see Sparks. The only good thing in Sacramento is Governor Moonbeam. Tahoe City has the most potential but currently it has an unhappy vibe (to me at least - at least most people in Truckee are upbeat). North Tahoe needs to develop its own villages slopeside. (Hopefully with parking!)

 

 

Whatever.  I like the stretch on the other side of the freeway in particular.  Some good restaurants and bars, little shops, etc. - it's nice enough.  Still has some character and a good local vibe.

post #114 of 123
 

 

@quant2325 As a pilot who has flown my Cessna over the foothills quite a bit, I haven't seen any dumps and tailings of the old mines. Active mines are occasionally visible but widespread. 

Is Bear Valley actually going to open this year? My cousin (whose son works there) was concerned about the viability of the resort when we saw her this summer. @Tony Crocker 's ones aren't there enough?

I have interesting memories of chaperoning my 4th grade son in the gold country. My wife has better stories with the other son!

 

A ski town is only really necessary when the skiing is not fantastic. A well stocked liquor store can be found in most strip malls...

 

Eric

The Bear Valley sale fell through, but they are hiring and will open for the year. The Rim fire missed Dodge Ridge.  As you know, there is no snowmaking at Dodge Ridge (no ponds) and not too much of it at Bear Valley, so a lot of snow this season would help.  There is no shortage of pizza, beer or booze in Arnold...the Bear Valley skiers won't go thirsty or hungry.

post #115 of 123

^^ I also think they've done a good job with the town of Murphy... still a bit of a drive to Bear Valley, but close enough for this conversation.

post #116 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post
 

@SHREDHEAD Funny how much opposition there is to developing Squaw's village that needs little auto involvement once you are there. And the attractions that might diversify the draw to Squaw and keep them out of the cars on the non powder days are even less palatable to some. A thoughtful development could be really spectacular. A scaled back condo expansion could be a disaster.

 

Eric

 

A gated private community for the 1% could be spectacular too. Think, no lift lines and the mountain is yours. If you'd like to book KT22 for day, as Mtn High did for the Cruise family, it's only $5m.   @eleeski

 

 

post #117 of 123

@JayT  Truckee is a cool town, I absolutely agree. But wasn't the complaint about strip mall towns? The strip mall Truckee is the fun part. Old town Truckee is a bit stilted, the hardware store on the strip is the best hardware store anywhere!

 

@quant2325 Bear Valley rocks! But "rocking" can be different from lucrative. As long as they make enough to stay in business. I have a @Tony Crocker one spot to visit there plus the cousin connection so Hopefully I can visit - if I can pull myself away from my @Tony Crocker  +one spot I have at Squaw.

Do you have a 4th grade story in the gold country? Chaperone if you can - it's very entertaining!

 

Eric

post #118 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post
 

@JayT   Truckee is a cool town, I absolutely agree. But wasn't the complaint about strip mall towns? The strip mall Truckee is the fun part. Old town Truckee is a bit stilted, the hardware store on the strip is the best hardware store anywhere!

 

 

I've never gone into Mountain Hardware and not found what I was looking for. Ever. Last year there was a woman in there looking for a menorah. Not sure how that one turned out but I wouldn't be surprised if they had it. We're doing some building--I was in there 3 times today. Nowhere close to my personal record though.

Don't forget the Safeway--highest sales per sqft of any Safeway in the world I believe. (The Donner Party resorted to cannibalism because the Safeway lines were so long at xmas.)

If you don't think Truckee is a pretty town you haven't been on the deck of Cottonwood when the sun goes down.

Truckee may be the smallest town in America with a cancer radiation center.

Paul McCartney used to do impromptu sets at Moody's.

Don't forget that Donner Lake is within the town limits (all but the southeast corner of the lake which is in a different county. 

It's enough of a real town that there are a fair number of folks here who were born here, and whose folks were born here. (I'm from Detroit, though.)

But you can't walk to a lift from anywhere in Truckee (unless they were to start up the old lift at Cottonwood). 

post #119 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

 

If you don't think Truckee is a pretty town you haven't been on the deck of Cottonwood when the sun goes down.

It's enough of a real town that there are a fair number of folks here who were born here, and whose folks were born here. (I'm from Detroit, though.)

But you can't walk to a lift from anywhere in Truckee (unless they were to start up the old lift at Cottonwood). 

 

Truckee is great! Why book a Hilton and eat at a McDonalds when you can try "biscuits and gravy' at the Wagon Cafe, buy unsual presents at Marilyns or just look at historical things at the Bar of America.  

 

 

Imo the successful hills, in terms of happy factor plus world podiums and visitations plus lift sales plus real estate sales etc, depend on the people. Sad sacks might be happy in a palatial suite with a hot tub watching tv. I'd rather hang out with fun people who throw parties, raise funds for race clubs and charites and pay it forward.

 

 

 

*

post #120 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post
 

 

 

@quant2325 Bear Valley rocks! But "rocking" can be different from lucrative. As long as they make enough to stay in business. I have a @Tony Crocker one spot to visit there plus the cousin connection so Hopefully I can visit - if I can pull myself away from my @Tony Crocker  +one spot I have at Squaw.

Do you have a 4th grade story in the gold country? Chaperone if you can - it's very entertaining!

 

Eric

Been there, done that with the chaperoning: panning for gold, baking bread, building an emergency shelter, the general store, etc.  Then there was the visit to the Railroad Museum in Sacramento, the Capital, Sutter's Fort, etc.  The best thing to chaperone was the 5th grade overnight to the Marin Headlands (the school can no longer afford it).  I never saw my kid during the day, only two kids in my group had issues hiking 5 miles, and the views were all "Kodak Moments."  Too bad kids are in most of the photos, otherwise I'd share them.  It is also too bad tourists to Lake Tahoe miss the Gold Country, Sacramento, and the all the wineries.  I guess downtown Truckee and Stateline are good enough.

 

Coloma along the American River:

A smaller train at the California State Railroad Museum:

 

Bluff near Marin Headlands with students writing in their journals:

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Ski Towns: When did Cali get derailed?