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Rossignol Experience 98 binding position - Page 2

post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 

Translation: 'I'm not able to make a substantive reply to what Chemist wrote, so instead I'll throw out a snide personal remark.' 

 

I was respectful to you, and I expect the same. Do I need to remind you of Epic's posting guidelines?  

 

How I spend my time is irrelevant to the issue, which is whether moving the binding 1 or 2 cm makes a difference.  You made a blanket assertion, in responding to peterw, that it does not (not just for yourself, but generally:"Sorry but 1cm or even 2cm just isn't worth a second thought. The people that make 'real' skis actually know what they are doing.").  I provided both anecdotal evidence, and a the results of a research study, indicating this assertion does not hold generally. Do you have anything of substance to say in response?

 

Sure,  from my experience it doesn't make enough difference to be worth bothering with for ME.

YOU can do whatever the hell you want....

 

If you don't want others opinions, don't ask for them.

post #32 of 39
In my opinion on this very important thread, I think it matters. For certain skis, it matters a great deal. Just my humble experience... Heck, some people have a great time on gear that hasn't seen a tune since the skis came out of the wrapper.

.5mm on an E98, not so much.
post #33 of 39

I think many who change mount aren't feeling better or worse, just different. 

post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post
 

 

Sure,  from my experience it doesn't make enough difference to be worth bothering with for ME.

YOU can do whatever the hell you want....

 

If you don't want others opinions, don't ask for them.

With all due respect, this is disingenuous.  When you replied to peterw, you weren't talking about your personal preferences, you were making a general assertion about ski design and performance.  That's why you added "The people that make 'real' skis actually know what they are doing." [Further, you weren't telling peter how it works for you, you were telling him how it would work for him.] That's the issue on the table, not your or my individual preferences. In reply, I provided evidence the assertion was wrong.  Now you're trying to back out of it by pretending you were only talking about your personal preferences.   You're also pretending I don't want other's opinions -- in fact I would like to hear other's opinions, on the question at hand, to which you've not yet provided any substantive reply.

 

If you make a statement, and someone (politely) provides evidence it's incorrect, there are essentially only three legitimate options: if you still think you're right, explain why; if you think the other poster has a point, thank him or her for the info., and use that to improve your own knowledge and understanding; or don't say anything at all (OK, four -- you can also ask for clarification or more info.).  Getting frustrated and taking a personal swipe at the guy is not one of the these.  I know I'm being direct with you here, but you of all people should know better -- you're one of the more senior posters on here -- far more senior than I -- and thus how you behave sets a tone for others. 


Edited by chemist - 5/6/14 at 1:07pm
post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

I think many who change mount aren't feeling better or worse, just different. 

I think that's sometimes the case.  But if you get a chance to read through the article I linked (it's the result of a collaboration between the Human Performance Lab at U Calgary, Canada and the Institute for Sport Science at U Salzburg, Austria), I'd be interested to hear your thoughts (or maybe I should start a different thread for that).  Their two basic results were that: (1) good recreational skiers can detect 7 mm differences (even when the binding position was masked), and some were more comfortable forward, others back, others at the mark; (2) adjusting binding position (forward for some, back for others) can make a signficant performance difference for racers.  Of course, it's just one study, and should be repeated.

post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post

With all due respect, this is disingenuous.  When you replied to peterw, you weren't talking about your personal preferences, you were making a general assertion about ski design and performance.  That's why you added "The people that make 'real' skis actually know what they are doing." [Further, you weren't telling peter how it works for you, you were telling him how it would work for him.] That's the issue on the table, not your or my individual preferences. In reply, I provided evidence the assertion was wrong.  Now you're trying to back out of it by pretending you were only talking about your personal preferences.   You're also pretending I don't want other's opinions -- in fact I would like to hear other's opinions, on the question at hand, to which you've not yet provided any substantive reply.

 

If you make a statement, and someone (politely) provides evidence it's incorrect, there are essentially only three legitimate options: if you still think you're right, explain why; if you think the other poster has a point, thank him or her for the info., and use that to improve your own knowledge and understanding; or don't say anything at all (OK, four -- you can also ask for clarification or more info.).  Getting frustrated and taking a personal swipe at the guy is not one of the these.  I know I'm being direct with you here, but you of all people should know better -- you're one of the more senior posters on here -- far more senior than I -- and thus how you behave sets a tone for others. 

 




It is not incorrect, it is an OPINION
post #37 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 

I think that's sometimes the case.  But if you get a chance to read through the article I linked (it's the result of a collaboration between the Human Performance Lab at U Calgary, Canada and the Institute for Sport Science at U Salzburg, Austria), I'd be interested to hear your thoughts (or maybe I should start a different thread for that).  Their two basic results were that: (1) good recreational skiers can detect 7 mm differences (even when the binding position was masked), and some were more comfortable forward, others back, others at the mark; (2) adjusting binding position (forward for some, back for others) can make a signficant performance difference for racers.  Of course, it's just one study, and should be repeated.

I did read it, when was this study done?  So many variables come into play BEFORE we even discuss fore/aft binding placement. Lets get people into a correct fitting boot and canted properly and check fore/aft in the boots. Lets make sure the skis are tuned. Third lets make set these people can (are qualified to) discern why the ski is skiing better/worse. I am not saying that there aren't cases that bindings need to be moved but there are people here act like it is the rule and not the exception. 

post #38 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

I did read it, when was this study done?  

Good question. On the first author's ResearchGate page it gives a date of January 2001, which means the actual work was probably done a year or two before that -- it does mention Atomic 6.14 bindings, but unfortunately doesn't specify the skis used.  In another study done around the same time by the same people, in which they did detailed force plate measurements to see how binding position affected skiers' fore-aft movements, they used 198 cm Atomic 9.26's (http://lous.ca/newsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Bindingposition_indepth.pdf).

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

So many variables come into play BEFORE we even discuss fore/aft binding placement. Lets get people into a correct fitting boot and canted properly and check fore/aft in the boots. Lets make sure the skis are tuned. 

Agreed, and I'll add binding delta to that (which has been all over the map -- I've seen tables of manufacturer's values ranging from 1 mm to 9 mm) since, collectively, orthotics+canting+lateral cuff angle+boot board angle+ cuff forward lean+boot flex+binding delta gives you stance, and stance is primary (which is essentially what you're saying).  Then once we get stance dialed in, we move on to optimizing the skis, which means tune and binding position (I view the manufacturer's recommended binding position as a user-modifiable property of the ski).  But the need to first get stance dialed in could apply just as well before comparing different skis, and yet we still entertain discussion of skis here on Epic :).
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Third lets make set these people can (are qualified to) discern why the ski is skiing better/worse.

Some argue that the only way to really optimize any of these (including boot alignment) is to do on-snow testing with an expert observer (possibly including video).   Personally, while it would be nice to have that luxury, I only think I need it if I'm choosing between two different positions/angles and don't have a clear sense which is better.  But if I do have a clear feeling that one set-up works better for me than another, that's generally good enough for me.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

I am not saying that there aren't cases that bindings need to be moved but there are people here act like it is the rule and not the exception. 

That's really the question -- how common is it that people would benefit from being off the manufacturer's mark -- what percentage would have their skiing improved?  I don't know. What I do understand is that manufacturer's marks are judgement calls by the manufacturer to provide the best average position for the consumer, that people are built and move differently (which is why manufacturers often provide different mount points for men's and women's versions of a ski, even when those skis differ only cosmetically), and that position can have a noticeable effect on performance.

 

[I'll add there's also the question of how boot size plays into this -- if we're both on the mark (assuming it's a center mark, not a toe mark), but my BSL is 285 and yours is 325, then our arches are going to be in the same place, but the ball of my foot is going to be nearly 2 cm (maybe 1.5 cm, since a bigger foot would have longer toe) behind yours -- so if we're otherwise identical skiers that differ only in shoe size, should it be our arches or our BOF's that are in the same place?]


Edited by chemist - 5/7/14 at 3:01pm
post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 

But if I do have a clear feeling that one set-up works better for me than another, that's generally good enough for me.

 

 

Really wonderful detailing of the mounting factors here, Philpug and Chemist. Wow. 

 

I first became seriously aware of mounting position maybe being a fun factor to take into account when I read the TGR thread by Sage. et al about the Atomic Automatic and using different mounting points for the 186 cm ski and the 193 cm ski. Man, they seemed excited about the differences!

 

I've already found out to my surprise that different lengths of the same ski can make a huge difference in how the same model ski acts, really fun differences. 

 

So I'm open to the possibility that with some skis, for me and others subjectively, such really fun differences, on mounting position too, might be worth exploring. I think Chemist was right, that you have to answer for yourself through demo or otherwise what works for you on mounting like everything else.  But mounting recommendations, from, say, Sage and his buddies, or other posters on Epic, are a good starting point, might be fun to try. 

 

So with my particular setup (boots, etc.), and your particular optimal setup too, here we go! Something more to play with on snow.

 

P.S. My Experience 98s 180 work great at the standard mounting point. But when I demoed them, I sort of wish I'd tried them -1 or -2 when I had them in powder, or +1 or +2 when I had them in bumps, just to see if the weaknesses of the ski, for me, would have improved using demo bindings.


Edited by ski otter - 5/7/14 at 4:21pm
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