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avalanche beacons cheap? - Page 2

post #31 of 42
Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyMtnEscape View Post

 

Not to mention if you make it out there are many search and rescue organizations that will charge you the cost of the operations which could be a lot of money.

 

Could you name a couple of those SAR's that charge?

post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMtnEscape View Post
 


FB is facebook. Mogsie I'm not familiar with the tremblant area. There is no risk of avalanche here... I did take my first AVI Course at Pinkham Notch in NH, granted this was a very AVI prone area but the education was great and expanded on that knowledge when I got out west with additional courses and hands-on.

 

One of the articles from BCA "~~The functionality of these three offerings is based on the use of the cell network, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and GPS signals to find a victim running the same app."

Do you really want to put your hands in the hopes of having cell service, your phone not running out of battery due to running Bluetooth continuously?No, and that is why I intend to buy a SPOT device...

 

There are some very dangerous and reckless views out there. Skiing alone, using a cell phone, not having the education....the list goes on and on. Even if people have a death wish don't put your buddies or rescuers at risk by your brainless activities. This is serious stuff. Without the education and right equipment a person has no business in AVI territory. Not to mention if you make it out there are many search and rescue organizations that will charge you the cost of the operations which could be a lot of money.I know all that

see below

Just be smart and stay alive for the next day. I intended to for about 40 years now...

I knew there would be someone who would go into this... and it is ok...

Since I was a kid, I always mixed outdoors and risk by the choice of activities I did and the fact that I was (and still am) very often doing it alone (this last part must not be taken from its context ;-)  )... I'm now 48 and still doing it ( context..again...)... and I will never stop because that is what I love to do! Going outdoors with friends can be fun too but it is a very different experience for me; I need the silence and being able to be alone with myself . 

But I guess that what is the most important is that I know it imply more risk and I act accordingly. When I go mtn biking, I won't go at the same speed and I will approach obstacles with care if I'm in a trail that I know is not often taken by people... I act the same way when I ski, even inbound, like in some glades at Jay Peak that are not very crowded, I'll be more careful... 

When I go out of bounds, I'll stay the nearer possible and if I get to a point where I find the risk higher than wanted, I'll take a pause and wait a little to see if someone is passing near or I'll back off...

My greatest fear is always to go unconscious...then, nothing can replace a friend being there...so I always wear an helmet to diminish the risk...

 

But at 48, and having the technology available, I'm really thinking about the Spot... And you have the option to send an help message to friends if the situation is not life threatening...

post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

Ok! I understand the difference now! But living and skiing north east, I'm less concern about avalanche...And if I come West, I heard that you can rent a beacon? Anyway, if I go west to places I don't know, I will not go alone ... I think...;-)

 

 

 

Beacon rental is pretty much none existent these days too much liability  

post #34 of 42

A Google search for rental beacons shows that renting is an option.

post #35 of 42

So how do you practice with a rented beacon?  You would have to rent the same brand and model every time, and whenever you have free time to just practice...waste of money IMO. 

post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhh View Post
 

So how do you practice with a rented beacon?  You would have to rent the same brand and model every time, and whenever you have free time to just practice...waste of money IMO. 

I also think that if you need to rent a beacon to ski somewhere that it's important to have a beacon, you shouldn't be skiing there in the first place! The same for any other avy gear! 

 

Are you doing an introductory class, safety, avy intro to a level 1, sure okay use the beacon the guides will probably provide.

 

Are you going to ski in places where avy gear is required and you have to rent? Turn back and go ski somewhere else!

post #37 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post
 

 

Could you name a couple of those SAR's that charge?


There is a growing trend in the US regarding the billing of SAR services, not as prevalent as European communities and recognized by NASAR as jurisdiction dependent. whereas the subject is controversial the trend is there and the cost is great. I'm sure with research on the subject you can form your own opinion. The below are excerpts from media, Government and National Organizations.

 

"~~In New Hampshire, hikers who negligently cause themselves to become lost or injured - resulting in costly and dangerous rescues - may be billed for those rescue services. * The State of New Hampshire and U.S. Forest Service spend more than $260,000 annually on rescues. * Search and rescue of hikers in the White Mountains averages in the thousands per rescue. * Proper equipment for a winter hike or rescue mission costs as much as $4,000 per person. * Thousands of hours and personal equipment are provided by volunteers. The cost goes beyond the dollars and cents. Search and rescue involves professionals, such as New Hampshire Fish & Game and White Mountain National Forest personnel, as well as volunteers. These individuals put themselves at personal risk, sometimes in order to find a hiker who has behaved negligently. As an example of personal sacrifice, in 1982, volunteer Albert Dow, an experienced climber, lost his life in an avalanche while searching for overdue hikers."

 

"~~The states of New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont are all allowed to recover funds, but so far only New Hampshire has made great efforts to do so. The law in New Hampshire had already been in place for about 10 years when legislators changed the language from charging for rescue in cases where the victim was "reckless" to "negligent." Debate has been inevitable because there is no set definition of negligence."

 

"~~In Colorado, outdoor enthusiasts are encouraged, but not required, to purchase a CORSAR card. It stands for Colorado Search and Rescue Card and it ensures that a cardholder won't be charged for SAR operations if they need it. It costs a mere $3 per year and the funds go to reimburse local and state SAR teams and fund training and equipment."

 

"~~ In Europe, you're on your own with costs for rescue, but many outdoor enthusiasts purchase special insurance that covers costs if a rescue is needed."

post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMtnEscape View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

Could you name a couple of those SAR's that charge?

There is a growing trend in the US regarding the billing of SAR services, not as prevalent as European communities and recognized by NASAR as jurisdiction dependent. whereas the subject is controversial the trend is there and the cost is great. I'm sure with research on the subject you can form your own opinion. The below are excerpts from media, Government and National Organizations.

"~~In New Hampshire, hikers who negligently cause themselves to become lost or injured - resulting in costly and dangerous rescues - may be billed for those rescue services. * The State of New Hampshire and U.S. Forest Service spend more than $260,000 annually on rescues. * Search and rescue of hikers in the White Mountains averages in the thousands per rescue. * Proper equipment for a winter hike or rescue mission costs as much as $4,000 per person. * Thousands of hours and personal equipment are provided by volunteers. The cost goes beyond the dollars and cents. Search and rescue involves professionals, such as New Hampshire Fish & Game and White Mountain National Forest personnel, as well as volunteers. These individuals put themselves at personal risk, sometimes in order to find a hiker who has behaved negligently. As an example of personal sacrifice, in 1982, volunteer Albert Dow, an experienced climber, lost his life in an avalanche while searching for overdue hikers."

"~~The states of New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont are all allowed to recover funds, but so far only New Hampshire has made great efforts to do so. The law in New Hampshire had already been in place for about 10 years when legislators changed the language from charging for rescue in cases where the victim was "reckless" to "negligent." Debate has been inevitable because there is no set definition of negligence."

"~~In Colorado, outdoor enthusiasts are encouraged, but not required, to purchase a CORSAR card. It stands for Colorado Search and Rescue Card and it ensures that a cardholder won't be charged for SAR operations if they need it. It costs a mere $3 per year and the funds go to reimburse local and state SAR teams and fund training and equipment."

"~~ In Europe, you're on your own with costs for rescue, but many outdoor enthusiasts purchase special insurance that covers costs if a rescue is needed."

You didn't really answer my question. I'll re-quote it, you said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyMtnEscape View Post

 

Not to mention if you make it out there are many search and rescue organizations that will charge you the cost of the operations which could be a lot of money.


I'm looking for you to point to the "many search and rescue organizations that will charge you..."

I don't think there are many.
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


You didn't really answer my question. I'll re-quote it, you said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyMtnEscape View Post

 

Not to mention if you make it out there are many search and rescue organizations that will charge you the cost of the operations which could be a lot of money.


I'm looking for you to point to the "many search and rescue organizations that will charge you..."

I don't think there are many.

I listed examples. You may certainley research at your leisure. I'm not doing a dissertation for you.
post #40 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMtnEscape View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

You didn't really answer my question. I'll re-quote it, you said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyMtnEscape View Post

 

Not to mention if you make it out there are many search and rescue organizations that will charge you the cost of the operations which could be a lot of money.


I'm looking for you to point to the "many search and rescue organizations that will charge you..."

I don't think there are many.

I listed examples. You may certainley research at your leisure. I'm not doing a dissertation for you.

roflmao.gif I'm not asking for a dissertation, I just want you to back up your claims. Your "examples" boil down to only New Hampshire making a few efforts, and a couple of other states allowing it but no "examples" of actual billing.

All the SARs I'm familiar with don't charge, and in fact they refuse to charge because they're concerned that people will hesitate to call them and end up in worse trouble.

My "research" turns up these organizations professsing no charge for SAR:
http://www.king5.com/news/Charge-for-search-and-rescue-186891122.html
http://www.mra.org/about/faqs/21-what-is-mras-position-on-charging-for-search-and-rescue
http://www.mra.org/images/stories/docs/MRAChargePosition.pdf
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/05/billing-search-and-rescue-missions-yes-or-no
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/pay-for-search-and-rescue2.htm

So, please list ones that do charge. Shouldn't be hard, you said there are many.
post #41 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhh View Post
 

So how do you practice with a rented beacon?  You would have to rent the same brand and model every time, and whenever you have free time to just practice...waste of money IMO. 


The reality is that a rented beacon would more likely be a "body locator" in an avalanche.  Better than no beacon at all, statistically, and that's what this exercise is. Statistics. My sense is that perhaps 1000 or so BC trips are made every weekend by folks on skies, snow shoes and snowmobiles without beacons and/or knowledge and they somehow survive. I'm lucky to have a very experienced and cautious partner for my back country tours who is also a realist. After our beacon check it goes something like this. "I've judged that the conditions are solid on the aspects that I've chosen for us to ski. If you do happen to get caught,  I'll dig you out. If I get caught, I'm screwed. We'll keep in under 25 deg as much as possible." 

 

I would recommend to anyone skiing out west, in or outside of the ropes, to at least read "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain" to get some basic knowledge.

post #42 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
 


The reality is that a rented beacon would more likely be a "body locator" in an avalanche.  Better than no beacon at all, statistically, and that's what this exercise is. Statistics. My sense is that perhaps 1000 or so BC trips are made every weekend by folks on skies, snow shoes and snowmobiles without beacons and/or knowledge and they somehow survive. I'm lucky to have a very experienced and cautious partner for my back country tours who is also a realist. After our beacon check it goes something like this. "I've judged that the conditions are solid on the aspects that I've chosen for us to ski. If you do happen to get caught,  I'll dig you out. If I get caught, I'm screwed. We'll keep in under 25 deg as much as possible." 

 

 

 

Only reason I know is we had a friend who forgot his beacon when he flew out last year. Anyways there was only one place in Summit/Eagle county that would rent us gear. Lots of places say online they do but they either meant you could rent gear when you hired a guide or no longer did it. We talked to the shop and they said that only like 2-3 other shops in Colorado still rented out just gear.  

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