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How do you teach people to change edges? - Page 6

post #151 of 171
Thread Starter 

Nice work on a tough topic, Pierre. 

 

Question: for what level of student would this lesson plan be appropriate?

post #152 of 171
I guess I mistakenly omitted the idea of true ownership and bulletproof confidence Pierre. Somewhere around the top tiers of Blooms pyramid. I agree success prior to that level of ownership we certainly can use newly learned movements.
post #153 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I love , love, love that post Pierre. I would add that ownership take repetition, and storing those changes we are experiencing take a complex combination of somatic nervous system engagement along with active cognitive, affective and spatial awareness that occurs mostly in the hippocampus. Some would also argue that fear conditioning also occurs to some degree there as well. I would love it of Chad would chime in and explain this in more detail but my take is repeatable performance changes are the key here. I believe strongly that is why the watchful eye of a good coach is so important. 10k reps, 21 days, and even the regression after 72 hours without practice come into play. It explains why athletes must practice so much.

 

Hey JASP,

 

I think your description entails a number of different regions, including the hippocampus. Without getting to wordy, we want to have our movement choices come from the lower centers of the brain, the lower we go the quicker they happen.  But the lowe rwe go the less control we have over them too so its a curious see saw to ride.  the associative nature of our CNS doesn't really let us look at movement from one system as opposed to another.  that is the POV of humans needing to simplify, not wrong, but not entirely the whole picture.  Does that help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
 

Quote:

I would add that ownership take repetition, and storing those changes we are experiencing take a complex combination of somatic nervous system engagement along with active cognitive, affective and spatial awareness that occurs mostly in the hippocampus. Some would also argue that fear conditioning also occurs to some degree there as well.

Thank you JASP for your comments.  I have enjoyed the simplicity of your posts over the years.

 

Your above quote rings a lot of bells and part of what came out of my exhaustive study was far better ways to learn sports. Everything you have written here is quite true but is that the whole answer. I think drastic improvement can be made in reducing the number of repetitions needed to take that ownership, bypassing a long learning curve. In many cases, the changes can be near instantaneous.  What would normally take years to learn might take a single afternoon.

 

The answer lies within your quote. The answer is to alter the active cognitive. Said a different way we need to alter reality, the cognitive can be fooled. 

 

Cognitively we may have any one of the four learning styles, prefering to learn and teach within them but your body has a fifth that does not play well with the other four.

 

Do you remember learning to take your first steps?  Probably not because our bodies learned most of the movement blends we use before cognitive ability kicked in. Learning movement blends was a combination of selfish motive and trial and error. Your real learning style for movement blends is that of a two year old and we all know well they listen.  A cognitive formal approach usually gets in the way.

 

I have heard many adults say “I wish that I had learned this as a child because they learn this stuff so much easier”.  When probed a bit further as to why they believe children learn so much faster the answers are usually along the lines of “because they don’t know enough to be afraid and they don’t have any real responsibility,  the don’t have as far to fall because they are not as tall and they heal faster”.  Translation:  Kids  don't live in the real world, they live in an altered state of reality.

 

Adults have two advantages over children.  First they have a vast storage of movement blends under many different activities negating much of the need for trial and error and they have the cognitive ability to plan and understand the path.

 

The coaches job needs to be knowledge to access the students library of stored movement blends and alter reality to make the connecting to skiing.  The coach is the director and the student is the actor.  The director sets up the scene to coordinate with the actor.

 

An example:  Your student begins the turn transition with an upper body rotation followed by a pole touch then weight shift to the outside ski and a slight lift of the inside ski.  You probe your student to find how the correct movement blend may be stored.  Your student is an avid tennis player and plays seriously twice a week.  You decide that your student probably uses nearly the correct movement blend when they are standing in rear court and the ball is hit to the opposite side front court. The movements used to return the ball are close enough.  What I am talking about is teaching for transfer with a twist of altered reality.

 

The set up.  Your student does not associate the movement blend for returning a tennis ball with that of a turn transition on snow.  Your student cannot form the intent to access the movement blend because the association does not exist.  You decide to set up the shot on snow.  You move to easy terrain, your student starts out in a left traversing arc.  Your student is imagining that they are in the left rear court waiting for the shot to right front court. You are uphill and simulate the other player and hit the ball to right front court.  Your student is willing to alter their state of reality enough to play along and pretend they are not on snow.  When you hit that ball they instantly move to intercept the shot. You have altered reality enough to access the library of stored information and the movement blend is triggered.  Your student moves diagonal while keeping the hips level and is on the opposite edges before they snap back into reality.  Your student instantly realizes what just happened and is well on the way to storing “turn transition on show” along with “left rear court to right front court” Now your problems begin.

 

Your student is so stoked they cannot repeat the acting scene on the second shot and fail to access the movement blend.  You as a coach need to get them back into an altered state of reality when they want to be stoked in the present state.  You manage to do that and the third trial is a success.  Your student realizes they may have to repeat this half a dozen to a dozen times before they can blend states of reality. 

 

Many students shown this approach do well, others cannot or will not put forth the effort to pretend and play. If the coach is a player and the student is game you can drastically shorten the learning curve on any one of the 7 things I talked about as important.  If your student prefers to learn in a step by step traditional method they may very well be doomed to robotic skiing. 

 

 

 

Quote:

 I believe strongly that is why the watchful eye of a good coach is so important. 10k reps, 21 days, and even the regression after 72 hours without practice come into play. It explains why athletes must practice so much.

As I have aged I have noticed that I fall out of muscle tone and shape much faster than I use to and it takes more reps to get back to where I was.   I would imagine that an elite athlete at the top of their game is in a similar position to a seasoned citizen.  Take a week off and you fall ten slots and it takes three weeks to get back up in the standings and more work overall to get there.    

 

 

Interesting reading, Pierre, thanks for the effort.

 

Having a 5 y/o daughter I agree, they certainly have a luxurious imaginative world.  But, from my perspective the differences in young vs old is the reliance that  you see as a benefit is actually a hindrance in our learning and our perceptive flexibility.  Just like the balance issues you describe, motor learning is enhanced by the instability or non reliance on certain synergies and motor sequences. Advancing either balance or motor skill acquisition requires us to have LESS preference, not more. Children are not only developing cognitive association but structurally also.  As adults we are in a position to not only have to find a comfortable place to explore movement options but to have the respect and patience to undo our the structural biases from our develoment.

 

If you look at either the neurological or structural components of motor processes they are both selectionist systems.


Edited by chad - 10/31/13 at 12:36pm
post #154 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

 

Interesting reading, Pierre, thanks for the effort.

 

Having a 5 y/o daughter I agree, they certainly have a luxurious imaginative world.  But, from my perspective the differences in young vs old is the reliance that  you see as a benefit is actually a hindrance in our learning and our perceptive flexibility.  Just like the balance issues you describe, motor learning is enhanced by the instability or non reliance on certain synergies and motor sequences. Advancing either balance or motor skill acquisition requires us to have LESS preference, not more. Children are not only developing cognitive association but structurally also.  As adults we are in a position to not only have to find a comfortable place to explore movement options but to have the respect and patience to undo our the structural biases from our develoment.

 

If you look at either the neurological or structural components of motor processes they are both selectionist systems.

I am not quite certain how to answer this as my attempt above missed the mark between what was in my head and your interpretation of what I wrote:  I often think in ways that I cannot put into words. By your last sentence I can tell you are likely more studied than I am in this area.

 

My statement of planning as a benefit was not meant to indicate a step approach to a preconceived outcome but rather when we fall down or answer the phone we can remember what we were doing before the distraction.

 

What I meant by we have a vast knowledge of stored movement blends was we are not trying to develop structurally or really adding cognitive ability and have done other activities.  Having inefficient movement patterns already stored under skiing is not a benefit but a hindrance.  Fortunately most adult use triggers to set off those inefficient movement blends.   A good coach has the option of trying to remove the trigger or altering the perception to be a different activity long enough to bypass the trigger. It's not very hard to fool the human mind, just look inside the beltway in Washington.  Politicians have it down to an art form they score point on.

 

I could certainly use more reading.  Do you know of any good websites or materials that simplify enough to pick up on what is being said without knowing all the jargon associated with the field.  Understanding the  language comes with time.

 

For the last few years I have worked more on ways to teach than my skiing.  Funny thing though, my skiing has improved with an emphasis on teaching (tongue in cheek)

 

I had an autistic never ever student a few years back that was autistic enough he had no speech and very poor eye tracking. There was essentially no connect or emotion.  Nothing traditional landed anywhere but I noticed that if he followed me he would mimic.  Perhaps I should not have taken the liberty of seeing how far I could push it but I did, right up to dynamic parallel turns on steeper terrain.  The kid mimicked everything right in stride even though when I stopped he  still wasn't in my world.  His advisors were astounded.  I would have guessed they knew he could mimic movement blends.   How does this fit with your last sentence Chad?  It sure messed with my head at the time.

post #155 of 171

No worries Pierre, I was cherry picking a bit. you did a fine job conveying the differences you see. 

 

I just don't necessarily agree the child's world is altered or that we, as adults, lose that curiosity or playful flexibility, it certainly gets muddled for a variety of reason depending on the person's own development, but the skill is there, and that I could appreciate in your writing.

 

A dutch physicist said it well, "Perceptions are not in the brain, nor in the world, they are in experience."- Jan Koenderink

 

How many experiences we explore in movement alter our perception of the world, just as it did for your skiing and teaching.

 

You asked about some related resources.  Look at dynamic system theory, Scott Kelso, Esther Thelen have digestible books on this area and Esther Thelen  specifically looks at cognition and action.

 

Alain Berhtoz's "Simplexity" is a great read, he is very good at relaying a dense topic to us.  Neuro based and movement based physiology that will leave you amazed at our evolution.

 

There used to be a youtube talk by Gerald Edelman on human consciousness and neuro reentrance, it might be more for interesting to JASP, but it is a beautiful hypothesis and shows the dynamics of the brain/CNS. (its still there, brain dynamics to consciousness)

 

Persons with autism are incredible, there are some interesting theories around it. One being int he last days before our birth the brain essentially destroys half the neurons, leaving us with the 100 or so billion, one theory is that if this clean up is to brief or doesn't occur throughout the brain those areas are overloaded.  Imagine this, some say we only get 5% of sensory stimuli to our consciousness/upper cortex.  Imagine having to manage double, triple, etc the amount of stimuli.  Overwhelming right, that is what we see.  You found the connection, you were patient enough to see it or use it if his parents could give you that learning ability. Your flexibility to meet another person is what matters. It would be no different if they had a bad hip, were blind, or cocky, how do we connect or do we try to force our beliefs/perception on them and write off the failure as their doing. 

 

All of our neuro system development is unique, just as the tissues and bones of each of us are different, these 2 systems are always communicating, knowing what they are saying to one another is a different learning approach, one you are finding out is far more pleasurable, or so it seems.

post #156 of 171
Quote:

Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

I just don't necessarily agree the child's world is altered or that we, as adults, lose that curiosity or playful flexibility,

 

 Imagine having to manage double, triple, etc the amount of stimuli.  Overwhelming right, that is what we see. 

Do you have in-law's?     My in-laws certainly think my mind is altered and wonder when I am going to grow up. :beercheer:

 

Thanks for the suggested reading.

post #157 of 171

I do, but I am lucky I guess, they are just as bizarre as me.:)

 

could also check out Mark Latash, some of it is heavy handed in the language department, but he wrote a very detailed book, "Synergy" that looks at the multiple levels of motor control.

 

Enjoy the journey.

post #158 of 171
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

I just don't necessarily agree the child's world is altered or that we, as adults, lose that curiosity or playful flexibility,

 

 Imagine having to manage double, triple, etc the amount of stimuli.  Overwhelming right, that is what we see. 

Do you have in-law's?     My in-laws certainly think my mind is altered and wonder when I am going to grow up. :beercheer:

 

Thanks for the suggested reading.

 

It's not only your in-laws... :)

post #159 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

It's not only your in-laws... :)

You're right come to think of it.  Mama here is just  chip off the old block.  The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.:eek

post #160 of 171
Thread Starter 

When I started this thread I had no idea where it would go, but as is the case of most threads this long, it went well beyond the humble opening question. We have talked about the problem of finding the right language to describe what, when, where, and how to get a student to perform a clean edge change, and we have gotten quite deep about it, but I wonder if we could find a way to simplify the complexity for the average skier. A little "Montana" vignette from the past comes to mind:

 

While making turn to the left pretend that some Vigilante down the hill just shot you in the right leg. 

post #161 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
 

When I started this thread I had no idea where it would go, but as is the case of most threads this long, it went well beyond the humble opening question. We have talked about the problem of finding the right language to describe what, when, where, and how to get a student to perform a clean edge change, and we have gotten quite deep about it, but I wonder if we could find a way to simplify the complexity for the average skier. A little "Montana" vignette from the past comes to mind:

 

While making turn to the left pretend that some Vigilante down the hill just shot you in the right leg. 

I think they shot me in the left leg if the result is a turn to the left!

post #162 of 171

hmm, I like that one Nolo, could be good for kids especially

 

But yes, shoot the correct leg!

post #163 of 171
i think nolo means that if we are moving out of the apex and across the slope in a right booter (turning to the left) and are shot from below in the right leg that this will cause us to, ummmm (forgive me here) "topple" into the new turn as it will collapse the new inside (right leg). smile.gif

zenny
post #164 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

i think nolo means that if we are moving out of the apex and across the slope in a right booter (turning to the left) and are shot from below in the right leg that this will cause us to, ummmm (forgive me here) "topple" into the new turn as it will collapse the new inside (right leg). smile.gif

zenny

 

Ah... even better...  Thumbs Up

post #165 of 171
Thread Starter 

Yes, I meant the leg you are standing on gets shot out from under you. 

post #166 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
 

Yes, I meant the leg you are standing on gets shot out from under you. 

Exactlly.  Left leg shot out from under you results in left turn.  

Left leg focus, tip left leg left, pull left leg back, turn left foot left, point left knee left, tip left ankle, advance left hip, have left leg shot out from under you, do something -- anything-- to that darn left leg and/or left ankle and/or that left knee (and the left hip to boot), and you'll turn left.

 

It's left all the way.  I like left turns.
 

post #167 of 171
I like the idea Nolo, although I know quite a few guys who who be more likely to shoot back and that might just blow up the whole lesson focus.
post #168 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
 Assuming they have boots that fit reasonably well, if they close the right ankle they will initiate a turn to the right and what is really cool is that they feel it, that simple movement works. We'll work with that for a bit and then I will suggest as they close the right ankle that they relax the right leg, shorten it a bit and see what happens.

"close the right ankle" , what does that mean??

 

Len

post #169 of 171

When you're just standing around, your lower leg and foot form a 90 degree angle with each other.

If you press your knee forward without moving your foot, that angle gets smaller.  That's closing your ankle. 

Some people have great range of motion and can close their ankles down very far; others can't close it very far.

You can close it inside the ski boot just standing in the lodge; flexing the boot, so to speak.  You can close it while moving along on snow.

(Opening it up is the opposite.)

post #170 of 171
Thread Starter 

A picture says a thousand words:

Dorsiflexion is the closing movement.

post #171 of 171

Lenkearney, I forgot to mention this works with the left foot as well :).

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

When you're just standing around, your lower leg and foot form a 90 degree angle with each other.

If you press your knee forward without moving your foot, that angle gets smaller.  That's closing your ankle. 

Some people have great range of motion and can close their ankles down very far; others can't close it very far.

You can close it inside the ski boot just standing in the lodge; flexing the boot, so to speak.  You can close it while moving along on snow.

(Opening it up is the opposite.)

 

Thumbs Up

chicken/egg.

Stand up tall, feet equally weighted and under your hips, like you are standing with your skis flat on the snow.

OK is everbody standing up?

 

Flex(dorsi) your right ankle, what do you feel? Where did your right knee go?

 

Think about the boot being a joystick for a video game and your foot is your hand. That interface, foot/boot is the connection between you and the ski. I like to describe dorsiflexion to students as letting off the gas.

 

Now relax, flex your left ankle what do you feel?

What part of your foot are you balanced on?

What happened with your upper body?

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