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Binding mount position

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

I am having bindings mounted to new skis and asked the shop for a BOF mounting.

Links:

epicski.onthesnow.com/a/ski-binding-placement-fore-aft

 

I was surprised by the reaction of the lead shop tech, “we haven’t done that for 30 years”. This is from one of the best shops in my area that does a lot of racers. They set almost all their racers to factory marks. They are doing the BOF mounting for me but I thought I would see what other industry professionals had to say.

My boot fitter, same shop, said it is up to the tech but my fitter typically goes with factory marks.

I talked to a binding manufacturer, at corporate not a local rep, and he said it’s up to the ski manufacturer, they know best. This guy was involved with the original discussions mentioned in the above links going back to 2000 but has no preference.

I talked to a ski manufacturer, again someone at corporate not a local rep, he said it’s OK to do the BOF mount but they don’t think it’s really needed, they don’t really care.

Now this is one shop, one ski manufacturer and one binding manufacturer. But, based on the above links the preferred mounting position should be BOF for the best ski performance. However current industry thinking seems to be; the factory marks are a good starting point and make it easier for the shop. The factory marks are really a population average and should work OK for most people so why use anything different unless there are special circumstances.

What’s the current thinking of this community on BOF mounting? Is there anything to gain or is the gain so little why bother?

post #2 of 12

Depending on the BSL a true ball of foot mount would, in essence, be like -10 right?  There isn't a ski made today that was designed and balanced to ski well beyond +- 5.   But, it's your money.  Who knows, it may work great for your particular technique if it is unconventional to say the least.  I'd think that racing a ski mounted that far back would wash out pretty easily. 

post #3 of 12

Maybe get a binding that can be moved back and forth easily?  For instance, Head/Tyrolia HD   LD   RFD  style bindings with a plate mount can be moved to +1.5 cm - 0 -  1.5 cm  rather easily with a single screw.  That way you can play with it a little and see what works, all in one ski day.  I just had a Head RFD14 binding put on a couple of days ago onto Moment Deathwish skis, and put the +1.5 cm setting on the centerline.  That way I can go 1.5 cm back or even 3.0 cm back without remounting the bindings.

 

Also, not all ski shops even trust the factory centerline markings.  Working with Level 9 shop in SLC, we measured the marks to make sure that both skis were properly marked and consistent.

 

It does make a difference for alot of skis where the binding is set up.  It's worth your while to do a little tweaking on hill when you get new skis.  Good luck!

post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 

I don't think a typical BSL would result in a -10cm mount, did you mean mm? In fact my 300mm BSL boots mounted -1cm at the factory marks. An older pair of 323mm BSL boots was about -2cm at the factory marks. 

It is my reading of the two referenced threads that you should try to mount the Ball Of the Foot at the Center of the Running Surface. The referenced threads seem to say that manufacturers are setting the factory marks to put the BOF behind the CRS so shaped skis are easier to initiate turns for the average user.

My wife has a pair of Head skis with integral bindings that works out to a BOF mount with the bindings adjusted for her BSL.

I had a pair of K2's with integral bindings that set up almost -2cm when the bindings were adjusted for my 300mm BSL boots. I felt I had to work extra hard at pivot slips with these skis. We'll see how the new set up works.

post #5 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCC55125 View Post
 

I don't think a typical BSL would result in a -10cm mount, did you mean mm? In fact my 300mm BSL boots mounted -1cm at the factory marks. An older pair of 323mm BSL boots was about -2cm at the factory marks. 

It is my reading of the two referenced threads that you should try to mount the Ball Of the Foot at the Center of the Running Surface. The referenced threads seem to say that manufacturers are setting the factory marks to put the BOF behind the CRS so shaped skis are easier to initiate turns for the average user.

If you put the ball of foot over the mid sole mark on the ski that puts your boot back almost half of the sole length.  I wouldn't call it a "ball of foot" mount if the ball of foot is positioned no where near the factory mount point marked on the ski.  If you're talking about pretending there was an old school ball of foot mark on the ski and seeing what that would be I'd say that isn't a valid comparison because skis are no longer designed that way.  I'm pretty sure the shop gave you the crazy eye because they thought you meant put the boot sole ball of foot over the mid sole mount point.  That puts it back the distance of (ball of foot-boot lug heel)/2 cms. A 30 cm boot sole would be well over 10 cm back.

post #6 of 12
Remember that race skis have a plate and we can usually play about with the positioning to see the differences and find what works best. Personally I normally set mine up 10-20mm forward on a 284 bsl
post #7 of 12
Thread Starter 

C-dart, I'm not talking about putting the ball of the foot over the mid sole on the ski. I'm talking about putting the ball of the foot (BOF) over the center of the running surface of the ski (CRS). To accomplish this the boot sole mark is 1cm forward of the mounting mark on my skis. The shop, the binding mfg and the ski mfg all knew exactly what I was talking about they just didn't think there was any reason to do it anymore. Their position is wherever the marks come out is where the ski should be set up regardless of BSL or skier ability; put the boot mark over the ski mark and forget about it.

 

S-skier, I am thinking of adding a lifter. I'll see how it skis then make my decision.

post #8 of 12

Going +1 of mid sole is something that is quite common.  Most of my quiver is around +1.  Just curious as to why you'd call that a ball of foot mount except for the coincidence that happens to be where the old school measurement happens to be. 

 

Scotskier is talking about a plate.  That is different than a lifter.  A plate is designed to spread the flex of the ski out evenly under the boot better than just relying on the forward pressure of the heel piece to do that. It is also useful because you can add multiple mount points to a plate without adding additional holes to the ski.  That isn't true with risers.

 

Plate:

 

 

Risers/Lifters:

post #9 of 12

As someone who has never experimented with the binding mount point on my skis, I'm genuinely curious about what percentage of the readers here use something other than the factory recommended marks? I'm beginning to think I'm the only one. What specifically do you gain by moving up or back? Does moving the binding affect performance enough to suggest that perhaps you would be happier with another ski rather than tweaking the design characteristics by moving your binding?

 

I guess I just don't get why you mess with performance characteristics that a team of engineers and elite sponsored athletes identified as optimal. I'm guessing that the percentage of skiers who can truly benefit from custom mount locations is very small and consists of true ski professionals and hard core 60+ day skiers. It seems to me that  you have to be a very nuanced skier to truly benefit from this practice. How good does one have to be in order to tell the difference and make the right choices about alternate binding locations?  I ski 30+ days per season and am a very capable level 8 skier, but I have enough inconsistency in my skiing from day to day or week to week that I'd think to tweak my skiing before my bindings.

 

What do you think Bears? I'm really interested.

post #10 of 12

As someone who as always had standard mounts I would say that the only people who should be getting custom mounts are those who have skied enough skis in enough conditions with enough different positions to know where they want their bindings mounted without having to ask a bunch of internet strangers. (Which I suppose that would mean that no one would do it, since there would have to be a first time, but whatever.)

post #11 of 12

I missed this thread on the first go around, but I see it now. ;):D:rolleyes

 

Here's where I took the original BoF mount experimentation:  BoF Mounting Point Method for the 21st Century

 

Note though that I've now modified my method and my thoughts on binding mount position since that post.

 

But first let's get a few things out of the way:

1. Mount position can definitely impact ski performance

2. Skiing a ski using different mount positions is the best way to determine your preferred mount position for your skiing style and that particular ski

3. The naysayers still haven't seen the light and I won't waste my breath (or maybe keystrokes in this case) trying to convince them otherwise

 

As noted in my previous thread, methods to determine the best starting point for your mounting location have become incredibly difficult with the introduction of skis with more complex geometries.  However, last season I had some great chairlift/apres conversations about binding mount position with skiers I trust.  Out of those conversations, and my own additional experimentation, I've arrived at the idea that most skiers will be happiest when the midpoint of the foot sits directly over the narrowest point of the ski sidecut.  The basis for this idea comes from consideration of what a ski is doing when it's bent into an arc during a turn.  Many times this position is identical to BoF over the center of the Effective Edge, but not always.  Also note that most often the manufacturer's factory mark is commonly placed at the narrowest point of the sidecut.

 

I posted a much more detailed description of this information last season (including instructions for finding the mount position), but it's on another ski forum.  If anyone is interested please let me know.

post #12 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashGordon View Post
 

As someone who has never experimented with the binding mount point on my skis, I'm genuinely curious about what percentage of the readers here use something other than the factory recommended marks? I'm beginning to think I'm the only one. What specifically do you gain by moving up or back? Does moving the binding affect performance enough to suggest that perhaps you would be happier with another ski rather than tweaking the design characteristics by moving your binding?

 

I guess I just don't get why you mess with performance characteristics that a team of engineers and elite sponsored athletes identified as optimal. I'm guessing that the percentage of skiers who can truly benefit from custom mount locations is very small and consists of true ski professionals and hard core 60+ day skiers. It seems to me that  you have to be a very nuanced skier to truly benefit from this practice. How good does one have to be in order to tell the difference and make the right choices about alternate binding locations?  I ski 30+ days per season and am a very capable level 8 skier, but I have enough inconsistency in my skiing from day to day or week to week that I'd think to tweak my skiing before my bindings.

 

What do you think Bears? I'm really interested.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCC55125 View Post
 

I am having bindings mounted to new skis and asked the shop for a BOF mounting.

Links:

epicski.onthesnow.com/a/ski-binding-placement-fore-aft

 

I was surprised by the reaction of the lead shop tech, “we haven’t done that for 30 years”. This is from one of the best shops in my area that does a lot of racers. They set almost all their racers to factory marks. They are doing the BOF mounting for me but I thought I would see what other industry professionals had to say.

My boot fitter, same shop, said it is up to the tech but my fitter typically goes with factory marks.

I talked to a binding manufacturer, at corporate not a local rep, and he said it’s up to the ski manufacturer, they know best. This guy was involved with the original discussions mentioned in the above links going back to 2000 but has no preference.

I talked to a ski manufacturer, again someone at corporate not a local rep, he said it’s OK to do the BOF mount but they don’t think it’s really needed, they don’t really care.

Now this is one shop, one ski manufacturer and one binding manufacturer. But, based on the above links the preferred mounting position should be BOF for the best ski performance. However current industry thinking seems to be; the factory marks are a good starting point and make it easier for the shop. The factory marks are really a population average and should work OK for most people so why use anything different unless there are special circumstances.

What’s the current thinking of this community on BOF mounting? Is there anything to gain or is the gain so little why bother?

 

There is a lot of confusion around CRS/BOF.

 

As written above in the linked threads the "manufactured recommended line" on the skis....AND boots...is based on a generalization, of some generalized ideal skier.  Its pretty good, but not perfect since we are all built different, (some taller, some shorter, some more mass in our shoulders, some more in our hips, different boot set ups, and ski stances) so there is no "one size fits all".  There is room for optimization.

 

So does BOF/CRS work better?  No.  Its is just swapping one generic method for another.  It might make  you seem cooler to your ski buddies, but the value ends there.

 

So where does all the BOF/CRS hype come from?  Was it all just a con?  No.  Let me explain.

 

Back in the day, when racing mattered....skiers would work to find their optimum binding mount position - and they would find it...eventually.  So lets say for a particular skier, it was to mount 0.5mm behind the line.  Next year...get new skis...mount at their optimum position of 0.5mm behind the recommended line....and.....it didn't work!  Why not?  Remember above...the recommended line is not consistent from brand to brand, and some cases ski to ski...so...0.5 behind might be ideal for ski X...but for ski Y...with a different line...it might be perfect at 1cm back or on the line, or 0.5 forward!

 

Very frustrating.

 

So to overcome this the CRS was developed...CRS provided a common mark that could be transfered across skis, regardless of brand.  BOF was then created as it could be transferred across boots.  Now...once you found your ideal mount point...you could measure it relative to CRS/BOF one ski/boot set up...and replicate this set up on another pair of skis/boot set up!  Was it perfect?  No...but it was pretty good.

 

So...to answer the question...yes there is value in trying to optimise...but going online to ask what works for others...is about as useful as asking others what boots they have...to get the same ones. 

 

Best bet is to use things like a balancer...then use the CRS/BOF reference points to transfer the values to your skis/boots.  Just swapping the arbitrary manufacturer lines, for another set of arbitrary lines, makes no sense.  If you don't have access to a balancer or such...I'd say just go with the manufacturer's recommendation.


Edited by Skidude72 - 10/30/13 at 3:10pm
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