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Boot Help Pls!

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
This is my first time posting and can really use some help.

I have a pair of 5 yr old Falcon CS Pro that I love but have gotten really packed out and started causing foot pain. I ended up getting a pair of surefoot inserts last season that helped with the foot pain. The surefoot tech though strongly recommended I get new boots or new liners.

So I am trying to decide now what to do. My question is does it make sense to get just liners or is it just throwing away money and I should just spend the money on new boots.

If liners, are the surefoot liners good or is there a better option?

As to boots, I was thinking of the salomon X max 120. Would have loved the x3's as I understand the shell is the same as the falcon's but I can't find them any more.

Btw, I'm an aggressive expert skier and like skiing the whole mountain - mostly backside but some frontside and bumps. 5'8" and 150lbs.

Thx
post #2 of 24

Welcome to EpicSki.  When you say "inserts" I assume you mean footbeds.  If not, set me straight.  I am a huge fan of Intuition liners.  I bought a pair a few years ago so I could get through the season in my old packed out boots.  Once I got the fit dialed in just right, they were absolutely great.  I didn't like the shells so I bought a new pair of boots the following season.  I bought boots that came with Intuition liners.  My son's feet are just marginally shorter than mine and he now uses the older Intuition liners in his boots and also loves them.  As long as the plastic shell is still solid with no cracks or deformities, and it fits your feet(do a shell fit to be sure) buying new liners will save you quite a bit of money.  There are some people on here who are still skiing in 20-30 year old shells.  I have no experience with Surefoot so I can't comment on their liners, but I can tell you that Intuitions also allowed me to quit using my Hotronic boot heaters and I can be in my boots all day without discomfort.

post #3 of 24

look into zipfit liners, they have many models which are for different shell withs, I have had world cup model with a 98 last boot with great results, much better performance over stock liners. give them a look on their web site if on east coast not many dealers, can fit yourself following their instructions . They are worth the price and will outlast other liners . thanks Brad

post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post
 

I am a huge fan of Intuition liners.

+1, I have had great luck using Intuition liners once the original liners crapped out.  I put medium density Luxury Liners in my Tecnica Dragons last year and was a very happy camper.  https://intuitionliners.com/the-liners/luxury/

post #5 of 24

Intuitions. My boots fit better than they ever did new. Fantastic heel hold. There is excellent info on the web site and a thread running on the first page of TGR Tech Talk. 

One other thing to check before buying liners for old boots is sole wear--if the sole wears too much the bindings can't work properly and a shop won't mount or adjust them.

If you get intuitions for an old pair of boots and then get new boots you can put the intuitions in the new boots--a lot of people replace stock liners right away, although now some new boots come with intuitions. 

I like the Powerwraps--only style I have tried. Easier to get into then you would think. The extra thickness up front did make my stance a little more upright--remedied with a rear spoiler and heel lift (I have really skinny calfs.)

post #6 of 24

Intuition Powerwrap liners also "stiffen" the boot a bit so if you wouldn't want your boot any stiffer go with the regular liner with a tongue.

post #7 of 24

Just to add a smidge of balance to the Intuition love, I'll be the one to add that I also tried Intuition liners last year...and I HATED them.  I suffered through wearing them once, and they're now gathering dust in the closet.

 

Where to start?  I can't remember the model, but they have a tongue, not a wrap, and they're VERY firm.  First, they actually made my feet colder than my old liners...on a day that wasn't particularly cold!  Second, they're so firm, it felt like my feet were incased in a steel mold, and I have a performance fit on my boot, so I'm used to a very snug fit...but the material was so hard, it was really uncomfortable.  Lastly, they made my boots even harder to get out of, often a 2-person job...or at least a profanity and sweat filled one. 

 

I'm not saying they don't do wonders for a lot of folks or that they won't be good for you, but just be realistic that they are a product, and no product is right for everyone.  If you have a size 27-27.5 foot, I'll sell ya mine cheap, though!  Only cooked and worn once! 

post #8 of 24
Personal experience: intuitions don't work well
in a very snug shell, it's the situation of "small shell, way too much liner". It translates as a world of hurt. But that applies only to a very snug shell. As a replacement for a packed out liner in a normal good fit shell the Intuitions should be a reasonable bet. I think Surefoot are foam injection liners. I never had any close experience with those, but a friend has them and likes them. I'd try Intuition first.
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

Personal experience: intuitions don't work well
in a very snug shell, it's the situation of "small shell, way too much liner". It translates as a world of hurt. But that applies only to a very snug shell. As a replacement for a packed out liner in a normal good fit shell the Intuitions should be a reasonable bet. I think Surefoot are foam injection liners. I never had any close experience with those, but a friend has them and likes them. I'd try Intuition first.

Intuition makes a plug liner that friends have enjoyed.

post #10 of 24
Correct. Even their plug liner is too much is a really tight boot. It can close, but it ends up being compressed to the point of being very hard. I never cooked a plug liner, but that tongue liner is not supposed to be cooked (I know you can and probably should cook it though).

The one I actually cooked was the regular PW. It was a miracle experience of a liner that hurt literally everywhere, but hurt equally badly. I never saw my foot being equally red colored. If you think about it, it is a great testament to the technology, it did it's job-it equalized the pressure, there was just too much of it.

To the OP- I monitor those liner threads and the recurring theme is that the only problem intuition has is heel hold. It's still better than a regular stock consumer liner, so there is nothing to worry about, but a flow compound liner such as a lace-up race liner or a ZipFit would have better heel hold that would last longer. I imagine that If anyone makes a liner with flow compound in the heel and intuition everywhere else would strike gold. Stick those into a Fischer shell, apply some pressure, ... hmmm....
post #11 of 24

I've had variable success with Intuition liners.  My first attempt was successful with a pair of Raichle  Flexon Comp.  The liner saved the boot for another two seasons, was warm and comfortable, and provided a snug fit.  The boot eventually fell apart and I couldn't get parts.  Also successfully used intuition in some Scarpa T2s.

 

I didn't have much luck with Conformable liners in my X3 130s.  These boots only have a small finger gap behind the heel in a shell fit.  The Comformable liners simply added too much volume.  I could ski in the boots, but by the end of each day, I was miserable and my feet fell asleep.  The boot fitter told me that the Conformable liners were not adding more volume than the Intuition plug liners, but I've since compared and he was not correct.  (His store sells Conformable and not Intuition).  Won't go back to that fitter again.  Bought new X-Max 130s - I think that I'll like the changes to the boot over the X3s (I also owned the Falcons)

 

Also, my daughter didn't have luck with plug Intuition liners going into a Rossi race Z2 boot.  Again, too much volume in the liner.

post #12 of 24

Several models of Intuition liners come in different thicknesses.  On their website it will list high, low and medium volume for some.  And it is important to get the right one.  When I got my first pair, the Luxury liner, they nearly killed my feet until I figured that out and Intuition sent me a "thinner" liner that was then perfect, as long as I left the footbed out.

post #13 of 24

Another vote for Zipfits. The benefits that I feel are unique is they essentially remold to your feet every time you put them on, which makes them easier to move to different boots (I demoed boots at Mammoth last year and was able to just move the Zipfits from boot to boot with no re-heating of the liner and no adjustment period.) You can change socks, footbeds, whatever, and the liners will remold as you wear them in about 5 minutes. (A heated boot bag speeds up the process.) They can also have more material added to them, or taken away. The material is a viscous clay/cork that can be injected or removed very easily. So if you need some volume taken up, have some of the material injected. Need more volume? Have it removed. I think it is a brilliant system and well worth the extra expense. I have hideously low-volume feet and these liners changed my skiing for the better immediately. I don't even know how I used to ski with stock liners.

 

I will add the caveat that I have never used Intuitions. But I can't ever imagine needing anything other than the Zipfits.

post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post
 

On their website it will list high, low and medium volume for some.  And it is important to get the right one.  

 

Agree, but mine were/are Low Volume.  It turns out even those were too much.  Intuition wouldn't take them back, since they had been cooked.  

If I had money to (literally) burn...and I don't...I would be curious to try one of the other heat-moldable brands.  I'm just too gun-shy, now.

 

I had an outstanding independent boot-fitter work some magic on my boots to get another season or two out of them.  

Once they're truly dead, though, I'll just go with new boots from a good boot-fitter.

post #15 of 24

Assuming your intuitions are fitted with a very thin sock you have to ski with very thin socks. My liners felt great in the shop, hurt a lot on the hill with my thin socks. Once I got ultra thin socks the fit was great. They are rigid, so the difference between socks makes a big difference. 

My intuitions are warmer than the stock liners were, but if the fit is too tight obviously your feet will be cold, or numb, or gangrenous.

One down side I have is that the boots don't have to buckled as tightly so now they leak--I have to take out the liners every night, after trying silicone, weather stripping and gorilla tape without success.

post #16 of 24

If your looking to buy Intuition Liners and have no clue what to get, call them.  Crystal will likely take your call and is a great lady to work with.  I bought some Power Wraps that clearly were waaaaaay to fat for my boots, called her up and exchanged for the luxury liners that are da $hit.  But ya, I had not baked them yet.

 

Skierish, take your liners into a fitter that sells and fits Intuition liners.  They will re-bake them, be sure your toes have the toe cup and padding on them and then crank your boots down tight for 10 minutes.  You will be good after that.  There are many threads on TGR for the DIYers.  Baking them yourself is very doable, but it takes you and a buddy to get the boot wide open while the other guy is stuffing the liner in the boot correctly.  The oven is the best way to bake them.

post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2 ski View Post

 

Skierish, take your liners into a fitter that sells and fits Intuition liners.  They will re-bake them, be sure your toes have the toe cup and padding on them and then crank your boots down tight for 10 minutes.  You will be good after that.  

 

That's the way it was done.  

No Bueno.

post #18 of 24

Maybe the reason I like mine is that the shell fit is on the large side of aceptable.

post #19 of 24

Hi, Oramos, welcome to Epic!

 

I'm very close to your size (5'10", 160 lbs.).  Needed new liners for my Salomon Falcons two years ago and did a LOT of research comparing Intuitions to Zipfits to Surefoot/Conformable foam.  I'm an instructor at Copper and am in my boots all day up to 120 days a year.  Went with the Surefoot foam liners and was extremely pleased.  Excellent fit, durable, responsive, not overly firm, and no colder than my stock liners.  All are good liners, but the Intuitions were too bulky for my taste and seemed like they might not have been as durable.   The Zipfits seemed an excellent alternative, but I was concerned about needing to be more careful putting them on/taking them off with the cork liner filler. 

 

Just replaced my boots with Salomon XMax 120s.  Very similar fit to the Falcons, but this model is now sized a bit bigger overall.  I chose to go down from a size 27 to a 26 since the entire lower shell can be heated/expanded to virtually custom fit the boots.  Will be heading over to see Jeff Bergeron soon to have them molded to my feet.  You might consider this also, as opposed to replacing the liners of your old Falcons.

 

Good luck!


Edited by mike_m - 10/9/13 at 7:16am
post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
First, thanks everyone for all the great feedback. Extremely helpful!

Mike_m, are you going to use your surefoot liner in the xmax or just use the one it comes with? Would love to hear your comparison of the xmax with the falcon once you have them set up. Curious, also, how did you decide on the 120 vs 130?
post #21 of 24

The Surefoot liners are shaped for the older boots and pretty worn out now, so I'll go with the stock liners (which seem very good, by the way) to start and will consider replacing them later with foam when they're shot.

 

At my weight, the 120s are plenty stiff enough.  I think you'd find the same.  I'll set them up next week and try to hit Loveland as soon as it opens.  Should be soon!

 

What's your home mountain?

post #22 of 24

I own both Zipfits (in Head Raptors) and Intuitions (in Dalbello 3 buckle Cross) and like both liners for similar and different reasons.  The Zipfits offer a more precise boot to foot fit, but they are much colder than the Intuitions.  The fit of the Intuitions is not quite as precise, but is very good, and they are extremely warm liners.

 

The bottom line is that both are very good but they are different.  Just be sure to figure out which version of each liner is best for your boot before you have them fitted.

 

Mike

post #23 of 24

A follow-up:  Went down a size, had the new Salomon XMax 120 boots heated and expanded to fit.  Skied them at Loveland today.  Skied great and felt like a totally custom fit.  For anyone who fits the Salomon Falcon, I strongly suggest he/she speak to a good bootfitter and discuss this option.

post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks mike_m. I'm going to follow you and get the X max 120s. Thx again
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