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Ted Ligety MA - Page 7

post #181 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

:)

 

is there a thread doing MA on how to drink beer

Yes

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/45003/what-are-you-drinking-right-now

post #182 of 199

Not being a racer I'm out of my league, but came across an interesting pic today and thought I'd post it.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 

 

Yup!  That to me is the key advantage he gains.  If you watch a lot of the rest of the field they dont get to the new ski so quickly and with teh new reg skis they start running out of space towards the next gate almost scrubbing a bit whereas Ted is cleaner and smoother and gets the pressure on earlier

 

The following sequence is from Bode's Olympic GS run earlier today (If you don't want to know race results hold off on the following link)...

 

http://www.nbcolympics.com/photos/sochi-olympics-mens-giant-slalom-run-2?ctx=golden-moments

 

 

As he moves from frames 7 to 8 looks like he's getting off the old and onto that new outside ski pretty aggressively, and early, well before the actual transition. Would be nice to see the rest of the turn, to verify everything's clean and smooth, and see what exactly he does after that, but...

 

Anyway, just trying to understand. Is that ^^^ at least part of the essence of what has made Ligety so effective?

post #183 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

The following sequence is from Bode's Olympic GS run earlier today (If you don't want to know race results hold off on the following link)...

 

http://www.nbcolympics.com/photos/sochi-olympics-mens-giant-slalom-run-2?ctx=golden-moments

 

 

As he moves from frames 7 to 8 looks like he's getting off the old and onto that new outside ski pretty aggressively, and early, well before the actual transition. Would be nice to see the rest of the turn, to verify everything's clean and smooth, and see what exactly he does after that, but...

 

Anyway, just trying to understand. Is that ^^^ at least part of the essence of what has made Ligety so effective?

No, that is a big mistake, lost contact on his outside ski and has all his weight on his insdie ski at the wrong time  and has way too much saggital split (read tip lead) looks like his outside ski either lost edge grip or got jammed in a rut. this is typical excellent Bode recovery!

 

Frame 1 to 2, yep!!!! (Hopefully we are numbering the frames the same!) 

post #184 of 199

Ah, was just watching 1st run GS on NBC West Coast, saw some of the skiers get bounced by ruts and lose contact.

 

Love the photo montages, but wish I could have the corresponding video to get a complete idea of what's going on at a a particular point in time.

 

(I'm numbering top to bottom, BTW.)

 

Thx.

post #185 of 199
Men's 2014 Olympics GS Run 1, Ligety starts at 16:24 into the video, Bode at 35:16....
 
 
If you don't have a login to a cable/dish provider you get 30 minutes access. The whole program is almost 3 hours long, but you can move around on the timeline. (The white vertical bars in the timeline near the beginning mark Ligety's and Bode's start times.)
post #186 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 
Men's 2014 Olympics GS Run 1, Ligety starts at 16:24 into the video, Bode at 35:16....
 
 
If you don't have a login to a cable/dish provider you get 30 minutes access. The whole program is almost 3 hours long, but you can move around on the timeline. (The white vertical bars in the timeline near the beginning mark Ligety's and Bode's start times.)

 

Well, saw Ligety & Bode with 4:35 access -- a minute taken up by an ad.  The Olympics are the only time I miss having television.

post #187 of 199
I just noticed the arm thing and found this thread by googling "what is Ted Ligety doing with his uphill arm at the end if the turn?" Ha! I just find it funny that that would actually work. Ahh the internet....

In any case, I wonder if it's an early counter rotation - like winding up to drive the new downhill arm and shoulder into the turn from a stronger slightly open (albeit not exactly stacked) position.

I know that many say the perfectly stacked position is strongest for driving the edges against the snow. But I've often felt like a slightly counter-rotated position going into the turn feels more powerful. OTOH I've been known to overshoot on these sorts of things - exhibit A: my golf swing smile.gif.

Thoughts?
post #188 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post




Quote:
Originally Posted by altamatt View Post

I just noticed the arm thing and found this thread by googling "what is Ted Ligety doing with his uphill arm at the end if the turn?" Ha! I just find it funny that that would actually work. Ahh the internet....

In any case, I wonder if it's an early counter rotation - like winding up to drive the new downhill arm and shoulder into the turn from a stronger slightly open (albeit not exactly stacked) position.

I know that many say the perfectly stacked position is strongest for driving the edges against the snow. But I've often felt like a slightly counter-rotated position going into the turn feels more powerful. OTOH I've been known to overshoot on these sorts of things - exhibit A: my golf swing smile.gif.

Thoughts?
nah, he's just doing his little red riding hood dance....

Yeah, the arm has about 5% pf the body mass, ify ou get it going with some energy from the other turn, you can use it somewhere else... anything helps. The question is how exactly?
post #189 of 199

not sure... but I think if I look at 2,3, and 4, the shoulders are counter-rotated relative to the hips, rotated away from the fall line.  and in 5-8 he has to drive the right arm forward until its even with the left in #9...   I guess all I can say is I like the feeling of doing this.  DISCLAIMER: In no way saying that I ski anything like a world cupper or even like a decent beer-league racer - just noticed this one thing that I thought was familiar and that I think feels strong in a turn.  Thought it was cool that I noticed it...

post #190 of 199

One idea about Ted's movement is this:

 

In 1-3 he is rotating the upper body Clockwise and since the stance ski is still engaged this will cause a clockwise rotational momentum of the body.

This rotational momentum is carried over into the next turn, which is anti-clockwise.  In this sense you could say that this movement is counteracting the skis rotation due to tipping into the new turn.

This way he can continue the counteracting into the next turn with very little pivoting/steering.

If he would have waited longer until he started the rotation, i.e. counter-acting in transition, the skis would have over-pivoted/over-steered. 

If he would have waited even longer, i.e. holding the old counter through transition, the transition would be slower and the next entry would not be as clean. 

In other words he manages to get into a countered strong body position with great angles without over-steering the skis. 

post #191 of 199
Cool. Thx
post #192 of 199

I agree with jamt. When Ligety is dropping and letting fall back his inside hand at the end of the turn it's use to set up his upper body for the new turn. He pre counters sort of.

 

You can see it in this video. Around 0:37, right footer. Produces counter while unweighted by dropping right hand back.

Not sure if he does this more on right footed, left turns, or if I just notice it more.

 

http://youtu.be/Mswj24rZcDw

post #193 of 199
Don't know if anyone will pick this up so long after the last post, but I came back to this thread because I came across a website about waist steering. I think the guy who promotes it is looking at the same part of ligety' turn that we were discussing. I think we came to look at ligety's upper body and discussed if its an early counter rotation. I think Kirchhoff (waist steering guru) would say that it's the end of the last turn - advancing the downhill ski and keeping hips going in the direction of the last turn. Is this the jist of "waist steering"??
post #194 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by altamatt View Post

Don't know if anyone will pick this up so long after the last post, but I came back to this thread because I came across a website about waist steering. I think the guy who promotes it is looking at the same part of ligety' turn that we were discussing. I think we came to look at ligety's upper body and discussed if its an early counter rotation. I think Kirchhoff (waist steering guru) would say that it's the end of the last turn - advancing the downhill ski and keeping hips going in the direction of the last turn. Is this the jist of "waist steering"??

 

Oh. This? 

 

 

There's a thread here: http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/28471/waisteering-revisited

post #195 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

Oh. This? 

 

 

There's a thread here: http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/28471/waisteering-revisited

 

Incongruous to see that in the racing forum.  It's worth noting that many things may get visibility due to the nature of the web, when the traction on the ground, or "snow," so to speak, may differ.

post #196 of 199
Why? I mean the waist steering for me makes complete sense.

Stay with me...

It is the same in nature as counteraction at the end of the turn. Look at the awesome photo above: it is the same as the shoulders going the other way, right? Its effect on skiis is largely similar... Except you just used the upper body to create momentum out of nothing and you're now just about to be punished by the next turn, where you will have to not only stop the upper body but also rotate with the skis and you just killed the next turn.

Here is the deal.

Often times we tend to think in terms of poses, which involve static images like "counter" when in fact we should be always refering to movements, in time.

Get closer...

By the same measure, I think we often tend to think of positions of the skeleton, like "angulated" or "separated" without giving thought to muscle action. You can be angulated or separated with no effect, if your muscles are not working! Likewise, you can get a similar, I will call it "artificial" effect by just using the muscles, without the corresponding skeletal alignment! Waist steering in my mind falls right in here.

Am I making sense or is this contraption of drinking MacCallan in a Johnny Walker glass catching up with me?

P.S. The stance above is also correct according to the USSA level 300 GS technique guidelines, as "the wall" is present... just saying.
Edited by razie - 12/17/14 at 6:31pm
post #197 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Why? I mean the waist steering for me makes complete sense.

...

Am I making sense or is this contraption of drinking MacCallan in a Johnny Walker glass catching up with me?

P.S. The stance above is also correct according to the USSA level 300 GS technique guidelines, as "the wall" is present... just saying.

 

Actually that photo is marginal at best from a "wall" perspective.  And, the waist steering mechanics would actively degrade any strong inside half that may be present.   The very few proponents of waist steering were very clear that they wanted people to turn the entire pelvis into the turn, i.e. rotate the right side of the pelvis counterclockwise (to the left) to turn left, and the left side of the pelvis clockwise (to the right) to turn right.  With all that implies in terms of weakening.  The degree to which waist steering has been adopted by the world of ski racing reflects this.   

 

But, drinking MacCallan in a Johnny Walker glass does make complete sense. 

post #198 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
 

 

Actually that photo is marginal at best from a "wall" perspective.  And, the waist steering mechanics would actively degrade any strong inside half that may be present.   The very few proponents of waist steering were very clear that they wanted people to turn the entire pelvis into the turn, i.e. rotate the right side of the pelvis counterclockwise (to the left) to turn left, and the left side of the pelvis clockwise (to the right) to turn right.  With all that implies in terms of weakening.  The degree to which waist steering has been adopted by the world of ski racing reflects this.   

 

But, drinking MacCallan in a Johnny Walker glass does make complete sense. 

 

yes and yes.

 

I was saying that it makes sense that it would have an effect on the skis - but there are lots of negative effects as well, yes.

 

if i was a nice guy - what would i say to someone wanting to power the ski with the hip after the fall line .... hmm, well, i'm not a nice guy, but i would say that one should try to power the hip more down towards the ski rather than forward along the skis, while rolling the pressure towards the heel. you would get better power from the skis and no negative side effects. there are several ways to do this, the easiest is to just lever the hips and lift the inside hip.

 

but i'm not a nice guy, so i won't say that.

 

and yes, MacCallan is a good idea no matter what you drink if from :)

 

:beercheer: 

post #199 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

yes and yes.

 

I was saying that it makes sense that it would have an effect on the skis - but there are lots of negative effects as well, yes....

:beercheer: 

 Yes, and negative effects include lousy skiing, and potentially exploring the current engineering limits of alpine binders when it comes to forces exerted on the sidewall thru active rotary, particularly if a deep sidecut is already engaged. 

 

Marketing is also worth bearing in mind.  You have lots of the elements of gnarlier types of diet & exercise advice.  The claim of discovering ancient wisdom -- in this case, literally an old  martial art/dance form not related in the slightest to sliding on snow, transmitted from some Yoda-like figure.  Then, the claim of a "codebreak," i.e. imo the claim that somehow what I actually think is a cool but ineffective martial art, Tai chi, somehow relates to modern alpine skiing in a way that greatly accelerates the learning curve...something for less!  Then, seeking not too competitive niches to garner "results."  Finally, elite athlete name-dropping.  Perhaps double-finally, somehow finding a way to promote said ideas on a site like Epic without the promotion being labeled advertisement.  Lots of stuff to bear in mind, particularly since it seems similar ideas are still getting pushed on this site.  Personal opinion, but if Ted Ligety really dug waist steering, he probably would have endorsed it by now.  Seems he hasn't imo.


Edited by CTKook - 12/27/14 at 6:39pm
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