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Applying force to front of ski? - Page 2

post #31 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

A few years ago Epic, a member here, started talking about "foot squirt."  In struggling to understand what he was talking about, I concluded this move was it.  I was never sure.

 

What I see Ted doing is manually (primarily by opening his ankles - and also his knees/hips if necessary) shooting the feet forward in front of him, tips pointing towards the side of the trail, at the very very top of a turn, while allowing his upper body to fall sideways into the turn.  I've worked on doing this for the last two years, just to see what the results are.  It increases (for me) the time spent and distance covered above the fall line in relatively short carved turns.  It also aides in getting very high edges early, and bending the skis accordingly.

 

It could be what Epic was talking about.  One thing to remember when analyzing footage of high level skiers and especially racers,  they are not balancing the same way that the bulk of the advanced skiers on the slopes are balanced.  Most skiers balance by means of stability or feet up through the kinetic chain.  They are dependent on the base of support to hold.  High level skiers transcend balancing on the skis to balancing over the skis.  They are balancing around the center of mass in a 360 degree sphere.  The skis are often part of their center of mass as is the case for frame 4.  Skiers who balance this way often look like they are skiing in a series of linked recoveries when in reality they feel well dynamically balanced.

 

For most of the turn Ted has very little pressure on the skis because he is after the fastest shortest straightest line with the center of mass from gate to gate.   His cm isn't really falling sideways, the skis are doing all the moving. Since the skis must travel a much longer line than his cm  he allows his feet to reach ahead and get a head start very similar to reaching the feet forward in bump skiing in anticipation of the next bump..  There is a lot of pivoting and reaching out to the side.  He has it timed so the cm and skis are close to having parallel paths when he engages the edges. Having the skis pointed in nearly the same direction as the cm is moving prevents the dreaded chatter, the ski edges engage instantly and the pressure builds fast pushing the cm as tightly as possible around the gate.

 

If you are balanced over the skis as opposed to on the skis you are free to do things like reach both feet out without much of any pressure just like you would reach one leg out to the side while standing on the other.  The center of mass is quite literally falling for a much longer time that most skier would be comfortable with.  I suspect the squirt referred to is part of accelerating the cm (like pump on a mountain bike ie frame 3) and the initial lofting of the center of mass in anticipation of reaching the feet and legs(frame 4).  Recreationally this is a fantastic way of putting your skis over on high edge angles in order to ski on steep groomed terrain you normally wouldn't ski with high edge angles and clean arcs.

post #32 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

A few years ago Epic, a member here, started talking about "foot squirt."  In struggling to understand what he was talking about, I concluded this move was it.  I was never sure.

 

What I see Ted doing is manually (primarily by opening his ankles - and also his knees/hips if necessary) shooting the feet forward in front of him, tips pointing towards the side of the trail, at the very very top of a turn, while allowing his upper body to fall sideways into the turn.  I've worked on doing this for the last two years, just to see what the results are.  It increases (for me) the time spent and distance covered above the fall line in relatively short carved turns.  It also aides in getting very high edges early, and bending the skis accordingly.  

 

I think sometimes these montages are difficult to interpret how certain body parts are moving relative to other body parts because we can't see the movement, we infer it, and the spatial distance between frames is not always accurate.  

 

I'm not familiar with the feet squirt thread you're talking about so I can't comment about anything pertaining to whatever Epic was saying at that time.

 

However, in these GS turns I do not think its advisable to allow your feet to "squirt" forward, in fact we should be trying to prevent them from doing so.  Even if Ted's feet moved forward relative to his CoM through frame #4, it doesn't mean he wanted them to, its hard to prevent it from happening when doing an OLR transition as he is doing there.  For all we know he was doing his best effort to hold the feet back.  You can see frame #5 and #6 he's doing his best effort to regain fore balance.

 

As long as he remains aft balanced, its actually much more difficult to engage the shovels for the next turn, so promoting a lot of foot squirting forward is not a great idea IMHO.  Might be something that a racer does on a SL when they are basically going to miss a gate otherwise...but major recovering actions will be coming soon after that, its not ideal.

 

For my own part I know I have experienced foot squirt on numerous occasions...terrain changes or various things happen and off they go and I have done my best to recover, but a lot of foot squirt is probably going to require a pivot move to init the turn and regain fore balance again.


Edited by borntoski683 - 10/6/13 at 12:05pm
post #33 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

However, in these GS turns I do not think its advisable to allow your feet to "squirt" forward, in fact we should be trying to prevent them from doing so.  Even if Ted's feet moved forward relative to his CoM through frame #4, it doesn't mean he wanted them to, its hard to prevent it from happening when doing an OLR transition as he is doing there.  For all we know he was doing his best effort to hold the feet back.  You can see frame #5 and #6 he's doing his best effort to regain fore balance.

The center of mass is not a fixed point nor is the mass fixed in the case of a skier. I am not so sure his feet have moved all that much forward of the center of mass and therefore he is not terribly aft balanced if he is unbalanced at all.  It does not look like a struggle to me in frames 5 and 6 and  I do not see and interruption in flow. Since this happens two times in the montage I would say it highly likely to be entirely intentional. 

 

In frame 4 the skis are very light on the snow or even slightly off the snow.  In that situation most if not all of the skis mass contributes to his center of mass.  I see frames 4,5 and 6 as rotating masses around the center of mass in the sagittal plane (balancing in a 360 degree sphere around the center of mass)In order to move the base of support to where it will be most effect at bending the center of mass flow around the gate with the fastest speed possible.

 

Maybe I'm all washed up but I no longer see movements like this as being out of dynamic balance requiring a re-centering movement.

post #34 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

I've extracted two of the frames from Ron LeMaster's sequence above:  frames #3 and #4.

Notice the feet shooting forward?  Ted has opened his ankles and allowed his feet to move

forward, out in front of his sideways-toppling body.

 

Is this Epic's "foot squirt?"

 

 

Isn't this a traditional down-unweighting move. Classic cross under?

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