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Sequential Turn Entries and their problems - Page 4

post #91 of 118

A lot of styles talk about relaxing and then tipping the down hill leg to initiate the new turn. This effectively weights the up hill ski, which becomes the new outside ski as the turn develops. Is it possible, or rather how is it possible, to make the weight transfer without pushing off and avoiding a sequential type of move?

post #92 of 118
Thread Starter 
...............
post #93 of 118

long leg/short leg

 

new inside leg has to shorten to let the center of mass flow to the inside of the next turn or else the new outside leg will push the com as it lengthens.

 

or

 

you could go up and over (both legs extend)

 

Both approaches have their merits, but one is more efficient than the other.

post #94 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
 
... I think a lot of talented athletes make the a common mistake of believing everyone can easily do what they do.  It's easy to understand how to do a simultaneous edge change, and the movements you need to do it are easy, but they require accurate balance before you can do them successfully.  A lot of people struggle to find even an approximation of the balance they need to ski at a very high level.  And by "a lot of people", I mean me.

 

 

 

I love this post for two reasons:

 

1) The first three sentences have a clear ring of truth to them from where I sit. In fact they get to the heart of one of my perennial beefs / disappointments with instruction, which is that instructors tend to spend way too much time explaining the WHAT to me at a conceptual level instead of the HOW at a personal level. I ski a fair bit, I'm reasonably skilled skier, I'm an analytical book-learner type to begin with, and I camp out every day on EpicSki, I've already internalized lot of the WHAT information. The challenge is getting my body to execute.

 

2) The last sentence is an example of the kind of self-effacing humor that, in recognizing the truth that we're all "skiing sinners" together,  goes such a long way toward determining whether reading this board induces joy or headaches. It's the Internet. Most of us don't know each other in person, or our habits of skiing or talking (e.g., exaggeration vs. understatement) or whatever. Therefore conversation go forward so much better when we err on the side of being skeptical about ourselves and giving others the benefit of the doubt wherever possible. I was just reading a different thread in which someone whose views I respect a lot did not (imo) honor this principle, and it bummed me out. Glad I saw this one afterward!

post #95 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

A lot of styles talk about relaxing and then tipping the down hill leg to initiate the new turn. This effectively weights the up hill ski, which becomes the new outside ski as the turn develops. Is it possible, or rather how is it possible, to make the weight transfer without pushing off and avoiding a sequential type of move?

 

It is definitely possible.  The "relaxing" and "tipping" do the trick.  Relaxing and/or tipping the ankle gets your skis onto their new edges, you turn because of the new edges.  Momentum moves your weight to the outside ski as you come around the corner; you don't have to do that.  "Relaxing/tipping" is all you have to do.   

 

Back when I was a sequential rotary-push-off skier, I read about "relaxing" that outside leg.  I just couldn't do it; "relaxing" as a concept didn't connect for me.  Someone here said "relax the leg as if it just got shot out from under you."  Well, that gave me a great visual, but again I couldn't get myself to do it.  Tipping the ankle didn't do it for me, either.  I still couldn't bring myself to do it.  An instructor showed me in an exaggerated way how I was brushing my old inside ski out while standing on the other ski, then stepping onto the brushed out ski, then matching the inside ski to it.  I had no idea I was doing all that.  Then he said and I quote "don't do anything with your feet.  Just move your upper body diagonally down the hill."  My thought was "how?  doesn't that have to start at the feet/legs?"  I tried leaning my shoulders and head down the hill while holding my feet still; I fell over.  So pathetic.

 

So I finally came up with another way of conceptualizing this release.  It worked for me; I lost my RPO for good.  It's also worked for my students when these other more common descriptions don't work (relaxing the old outside leg, tipping the old outside ankle, moving the whole upper body diagonally down the hill).  

 

Imagine an invisible wire running from your outside hip down to your outside boot.  At the end of your turn, slowly and deliberately slide your hip down that wire towards that boot.  Nothing else, just this.  You'll tip over slightly, not enough to be scary, your skis/shins will stay parallel, your skis will automatically tip themselves equally onto their new edges as your hip goes down, and you'll turn.  Your weight will end up on the outside ski as you come around.  All you do is lower the hip.  ((You need to be skiing into counter for this to work smoothly, so I teach this first.)) 


Edited by LiquidFeet - 10/6/13 at 12:20pm
post #96 of 118
LF, I like your story and agree that imagineering is the key to taking the concept and translating it into action. Sometimes we get so literal that the subtle biomechanical differences among people gets ignored. As a follow up to the wire imagery it is very similar to Deb Armstrong's pull you heel up to your glute idea. Although the focus is more on the foot moving not the pelvis. IMO neither end of the leg actually moves in isolation since all the joints must articulate to allow that leg to change length. This suggests a more shared approach when it comes to change how each joint contributes to stance changes and edge angle changes.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/6/13 at 1:57pm
post #97 of 118
Thread Starter 

Oh yes, Jasp, I forgot about that way to release the outside ski; I've not heard it attributed to Deb Armstrong, but it doesn't surprise me that she would do it.  

 

Most of the Level IIIs on my mountain do this (lifting the old outside ski's tail, or your heel, same thing), even though PSIA talks about keeping both skis firmly on the ground all the time.  I've never understood that.  

 

If you want even more ooomph from that new inside ski, pull it back too.  As it tips onto its little toe edge, you are in effect pressing the LTE of its tip into the snow much like moving along in a canoe and dragging a paddle in the water on one side.  It tightens the turn even more, and increases the inside ski's effect on turn radius without you having to weight it.

post #98 of 118

Who's LQ?

post #99 of 118
Core projection needs to be mentioned and how a too static a core contributes to sequential edge changes. Stepped and RPO's can usually be traced back to this. Spider like leg moves is how I describe this movement quality. Contrast that with the whole body staying involved and adjusting as needed to develop a balanced stance.
The trick is to find that image that allows most of this to occur automatically without the layer of preventing movement in all but one small part of the body.
post #100 of 118
Fixed it,SMJ...
post #101 of 118
LF, pulling the heel up without unweighting the ski has a long history.
post #102 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

LF, pulling the heel up without unweighting the ski has a long history.

 

I like this concept, along with LF's hip drop. Either way you do it, it does focus the initial movement specifically on the old outside ski; so how do you prevent this one sided isolated movement from becoming sequential. Or does it all just happen naturally if you trigger it correctly?

post #103 of 118
Thread Starter 

It happens naturally.  The new outside leg follows along, behaving well, when the focus is on the new inside leg.  Usually.  

post #104 of 118

MGA, a couple things.  

 

First generally, tipping the downhill ski requires very active inversion movements of the ankle, and movements of the knee down the hill, towards the inside.  The outside ski is a different matter.  You can allow the outside ski to be tipped passively.  The CoM will simply pull it over onto edge as the CoM moves across and creates inclination of the outside leg.  That is actually what you want, if you try to do foot tipping on the outside leg, you're likely going to end up with knee angulation which is weak.  Allowing the CoM to pull your outside ski onto edge by maintaining a stacked position is a much stronger way to enter a turn. 

 

Also consider that your ankle bone is connected to your shin bone, your shin bone connected to your knee bone, your knee bone connected to your thigh bone, your thigh bone connected to your hip bone, your downhill hip bone connected to your uphill hip bone, your uphill hip bone connected to your uphill thigh, etc...connected to your uphill ski.  

 

Essentially, there is a chain of body parts that connect your downhill ski and leg to your CoM.  When you tip the downhill foot, the CoM moves that way too.  When the CoM moves that way too, it causes your outside leg to inclinate that direction and creates more edge angle on that uphill/outside side, passively.

 

Its actually kind of difficult to get your inside ski to tip more than your outside ski.  The vast majority of skiers and ski instructors are not doing it.  If you tip your inside foot, your outside will follow as the CoM moves that way. Doing it so aggressively that it actually tips more then the outside requires focus and skill actually.  Pointing the outside knee into an A-frame, conversely, is commonly seen all over the place and not generally a good approach, and is not difficult to do.  Its more difficult to keep that foot passive and allow the CoM to tip that outside ski by moving across and developing outside edge angle through inclination rather than ankle tipping.

 

I will also say that if you do manage to get the inside ski to tip more then the outside ski, its not a problem.  If you are standing on the outside ski mostly, then the skis do not need to have the same edge angle.  The inside ski also is not riding on the same line as the outside ski, it doesn't have the same turn radius to make... The skis are not bent to the same degree.  its debatable whether its shorter radius or longer radius path for the two skis....its debatable whether the skis stay the same distance apart from each other, etc...these are all variables which basically means its not so hyper critical for the two skis to have exactly the same edge angle.  The outside ski edge angle is largely what determines turn shape.  

 

Creating an A-frame is not such a horrible thing necessarily if the outside leg is not the one that is pointing the knee in.  :eek  (did I just say that?)

 

 

In other words, if you tip the outside ski in and get an A-frame, then you're on a weak non-stacked stance on the outside ski.  

 

Conversely, If you maintain outside leg stacking, but for whatever the reason the lazy inside ski is not tipped quite as much, like we saw with Ted on that other thread for example, its not necessarily a problem.  A bit lazy and denying the benefits of inside foot tipping perhaps, but not a problem.  

 

If the inside leg is tipped even more then the outside its really not a problem and provides many benefits in that the chain of body parts are being pulled to the inside...that aggressive inside foot tipping is inclinating the outside leg and creating edge angles without pointing the outside knee in to get it.

 

All of the tipping movements can also be combined with various forms of moving the CoM across other than tipping the downhill/inside foot.  Creating imbalances through various means will move the CoM across.  Pushing your CoM across off the BTE of the uphill ski will do it, if you must.  Even a heel push or pivot of some kind will result in positioning the outside ski to the outside of the CoM, which passively tips it.  Ok that is not completely passive because of the rotary required, but get the point...  moving the CoM downhill from the outside ski and allowing the edge angle to develop passively rather than focus on tipping it.   Conversely, aggressively tipping the downhill/inside ski is not a problem and will most of the time cause the uphill ski to tip right along with it so closely that an untrained eye will just see what they perceive to be simultaneous edge change.


Edited by borntoski683 - 10/6/13 at 8:55pm
post #105 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

MGA, a couple things.  





All of the tipping movements can also be combined with various forms of moving the CoM across other than tipping the downhill/inside foot.  Creating imbalances through various means will move the CoM across.  Pushing your CoM across off the BTE of the uphill ski will do it, if you must.  

For me that pushing off the big toe edge greatly improved my transitions - allowing me to get on the edges above the fall line

In the more passive "toppling" my stance would typically narrow, not allowing early edge angles soon after transition
post #106 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

MGA, a couple things.  

 

 

This is the move right, the difference maker, the one that gets you out of the intermediate rut?

 

I feel like I make the move most of the time, it feel effortless and seamless. I just seem to fall into the new turn. But it sometimes fails me when the going gets tough. I feel like I can't quite commit and let go of the old edge and push off instead of release. It's quick and subtle, just a moment of hesitation, a hitch in my giddy-up, but it's there and I want it gone!

 

Do I just keep doing what I'm doing and trust to experience, or might there be a fault in my action that needs addressing first?

post #107 of 118
Thread Starter 

A good instructor can see if you take a lesson.  

Or if you have very thick skin, you can get a video of yourself skiing and post on Epic for MA.  Read some MA threads before you do this.  People on the internet can be painfully blunt.  

post #108 of 118
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

For me that pushing off the big toe edge greatly improved my transitions - allowing me to get on the edges above the fall line

In the more passive "toppling" my stance would typically narrow, not allowing early edge angles soon after transition
 
hmm a wider stance promotes toppling not narrow.   A narrow stances promotes tipping of the downhill ski, its easier because you don't have to get your knee so far out there to tip it.  But if you really want to topple across, go for a wider stance and then simply stand on the uphill ski, you will topple faster then you want to.  
 
I encourage you to keep working on trying to do it without a push.  I know a lot of people do push their CoM's into the turn which is why I included it as an inferior (depending on who you're talking to) possibility.  Chances are high that you will be getting a heel push when you try to push your CoM across...  Its also very common to develop a pop extension if your push is not absolutely perfectly timed with perfect sense of feel for how hard to push.
 
Usually someone who is needing to push themselves across is finishing their turns aft and has to hoist themselves out of it with an up move, which is complimented finally by a push to get their CoM down the hill.
 
That being said, I prefer that you push your CoM across then to pivot your skis across to the other side of your CoM.  But still I encourage you to get better at doing it without pushing yourself there.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

 

This is the move right, the difference maker, the one that gets you out of the intermediate rut?

 

Thumbs Up  Absolutely.  Actually there are quite a few advanced skiers that need to work on this to get to truly expert skiing as well.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

I feel like I make the move most of the time, it feel effortless and seamless. I just seem to fall into the new turn. But it sometimes fails me when the going gets tough. I feel like I can't quite commit and let go of the old edge and push off instead of release. It's quick and subtle, just a moment of hesitation, a hitch in my giddy-up, but it's there and I want it gone!

 

Do I just keep doing what I'm doing and trust to experience, or might there be a fault in my action that needs addressing first?

 

Agree with LF, I can't diagnose without video.  Feel free to PM me with it if you don't want public scrutiny.

 

Getting upside down in high-C is not that easy to do, particularly on steeper terrain.  There are a lot of moving parts.  It does require you to move inside down the hill to get on the new edges earlier..however...it also requires you to stay in balance on the outside ski.  Fall down the hill too fast and you'll lose pressure on the new outside ski and lose control for a bit too, if not fall down on the inside.  

 

There is a slot of balance where you allow your CoM to topple to the inside down the hill while also counter balancing outwards and up the hill with your upper body, so that the inclination is being built from the toppling, but balance is still under control due to upper body counter balancing (ie, angulation).  Finding that balance is how you can release the downhill ski to allow your CoM to flow into every turn, even on steep terrain, without feeling like you're going to fall down, but it takes some time to become confident you will maintain your balance before you will be able to let go and release yourself down the steeper terrain.  

post #109 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post.

 

Getting upside down in high-C is not that easy to do, particularly on steeper terrain.    

 

Not too sure of the terminology, but is this referring to the part of the turn before the fall line?

 

There was a huge thread recently about patience at turn initiation; I didn't get it at the time, but I'm presuming this is also part of speed control and simultaneous edge changes.

post #110 of 118
Bts683 - very good stuff. Perhaps push was/is too strong of a term.

For me thinking about that ski (ILE) worked better for me than OLR. The sensation of CM and skis crossing paths repeatedly was much more tangible when I thought of big toe at transition.

That said I do sometimes find myself aft at transition. But that's usually holding on to the old turn too long, not dialing down he edge angles soon enough (then an abrupt transition)

I think when I tried OLR my skis would swim together at neutral - and I found it hard to get high edge angles early in the turn


I like this description:

But if you really want to topple across, go for a wider stance and then simply stand on the uphill ski, you will topple faster then you want to.
post #111 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post

Not too sure of the terminology, but is this referring to the part of the turn before the fall line?

There was a huge thread recently about patience at turn initiation; I didn't get it at the time, but I'm presuming this is also part of speed control and simultaneous edge changes.

Exactly that - the (downhill) edges of the skis engaged above the fall line
post #112 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
I think when I tried OLR my skis would swim together at neutral - and I found it hard to get high edge angles early in the turn.

 

   OLR works best before your skis have flattened, ie tip the new inside LTE while the new outside is still LTE. That's why it's "Outside Leg Retraction", because technically, it's still the outside leg...

 

    zenny

post #113 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

Bts683 - very good stuff. Perhaps push was/is too strong of a term.

For me thinking about that ski (ILE) worked better for me than OLR. The sensation of CM and skis crossing paths repeatedly was much more tangible when I thought of big toe at transition.

That said I do sometimes find myself aft at transition. But that's usually holding on to the old turn too long, not dialing down he edge angles soon enough (then an abrupt transition)

I think when I tried OLR my skis would swim together at neutral - and I found it hard to get high edge angles early in the turn


I like this description:

But if you really want to topple across, go for a wider stance and then simply stand on the uphill ski, you will topple faster then you want to.

 

doc, bear in mind that good solid ILE technique is not really a push of the CoM down the hill either.  its simply a slight nudge on the LTE of the uphill ski in order to create imbalance such that the CoM will topple across.  And as your CoM topples across, less of an emphasis on flexing the downhill leg and acceptance for a long leg up and over transition.

 

 Keep in mind that in order to do much of a push of your CoM into the turn without any toppling, you have to be on the BTE of that outside ski to do it.  so that means you can't really push on anything to move your CoM that way until past neutral.  How do you  move your CoM that direction prior to neutral?  If you already get it moving that direction before neutral, why would you need to push?  

 

See what I mean?

 

Usually if someone is pushing a lot, they are probably pushing themselves up, more than anything.  Quite a lot of instructors I come across finish their turns trapped a little bit behind their heel and they have to lift their CoM over their BoS in order to move it down through.  Thus they have a push move, but its mostly a push up move.

post #114 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

 

   OLR works best before your skis have flattened, ie tip the new inside LTE while the new outside is still LTE. That's why it's "Outside Leg Retraction", because technically, it's still the outside leg...

 

    zenny

 

I kinda like this idea of before your skis have flattened as an emphasis.  Most skiers want to give up their counter and square up the tips at edge change.  Since the new inside foot must invert and inversion requires adduction and dorsi flexion it makes sense to use OLR before the skis go flat because the old outside foot is still behind the old inside foot for most skiers and that puts the old outside ankle still  dorsi-flexed.  In addition, the motion of retraction and tipping the new inside foot to the LTE before the skis go flat would cause the skier to tighten their core keeping the old inside foot in dorsi-flexion as well.  Since the new outside foot needs to evert  and eversion is a combination of tipping, abduction and plantar flexing the act of keeping dorsi-flexion on the new outside foot would prevent the new outside foot from edging before the new inside foot. Diversion of the skis would also be gone. Thumbs Up

 

You might temporarily take away the pole touch too as that is usually a trigger for an automatic series of inefficient movement the student usually makes.

post #115 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

I think when I tried OLR my skis would swim together at neutral - and I found it hard to get high edge angles early in the turn.

   OLR works best before your skis have flattened, ie tip the new inside LTE while the new outside is still LTE. That's why it's "Outside Leg Retraction", because technically, it's still the outside leg...

    zenny

[Not an instructor.]

Zenny: this resonates. Doc: Don't give up on OLR as a tool in your box. When I get it working - easily on firm snow at speed when not crazy steep; with difficulty in certain other conditions - it's like magic. Don't have to worry about any of the other crap y'all are talking about. So much pent up force is available at the bottom of the turn that when I collapse the old outside leg crisply my whole body rockets downhill across skis-flat and onto the new edges so fast I couldn't screw it up if I wanted to.
post #116 of 118
Thread Starter 

Summarizing all this instructor-talk (but not as briefly nor as colorfully as qcanoe has done):

 

1.  release:  at end of old turn, release old outside ski/new inside ski by moving its hip down the imaginary wire; this will begin the topple  (OLR)

 This release can be slow or fast:  as your hip comes down your edges will change; the speed of this is determined by how fast you did #1; do it fast, and you're qcanoe!  Do it slowly on easy terrain and it still works just fine.  As soon as you do this you'll feel LTE of your new inside ski biting into the snow, before the skis reach the fall line.  This is good.  The LTE bite is what I miss most when ski season ends.  

2.  counter:  Gradually move your inside hip/shoulder/arm/hand forward.  This erases the possibility of banking.  You can call it "strong inside half" or "inside hip drive" or "skiing into counter," whatever you like.

3.  Don't worry about the new outside leg or ski; it usually takes care of itself.  If it doesn't, straighten it out gently to keep its ski on the ground; think of straightening the crease behind the knee.  But do NOT "push."

 

To add oomph to #1 you can also, but don't have to, try these:

a.  Tip that old outside ankle down into the snow as you lower the hip.

b.  Lift the tail of the old outside ski as you tip it; this helps get you forward as the new turn starts; you don't want that ski out in front of you.

c.  Roll that old outside knee outwards, going "bowlegged."

d.  Think of the lowering of the hip as "relaxing" or "letting go" -- this may help you do it faster if that's a goal.

 

To add oomph to #2 you can also:

e.  Pull or hold that old outside foot backwards under you as you drive its hip forward.  **Be careful, this foot pull-back can cause upper body rotation if you don't also drive the hip etc forward at the same time

 

If carving, this is pretty much it.

If steering slower turns, all of this stuff still applies.

 

This package of related moves gives you simultaneous turn entries, removes the "up" move (as long as you're doing OLR), deletes banking, helps get you forward at turn start, eliminates the unintentional stem and its A-frame, and helps you maintain constant stance width.  Usually.


Why bother?  

A sensation of continuous flow (euphoria!); less muscular effort and less fatigue; grace (those on the chair can see the flow!); much better speed control and confidence on steep hard snow. 

And it helps you ski powder, crud, and spring slush.

What's not to love? 

post #117 of 118

A couple things to clean up a bit,

1. the release and re-engagement part changes the leg length but the up and down movement of the pelvis / core depends on the transition type. Vaulting in particular doesn't use much OLR, yes there may be some flexing (VB management) of that leg but not much. A retraction transition (think absorbing a mogul) obviously would be the opposite end of this spectrum. The leg length thus becomes a function of maintaining contact with the snow as we execute whatever tactical turn finish fits our incidental need.

2. counter from leg steering eliminates the need to create it artificially. It's an option but if that is habitual, then the leg steering skills need refinement.

3. OLE after the edge change maintains contact and centrifugal forces do the weight shifting, ILE prior to the edge change is less prevalent now days but it might become necessary if leg steering and angular momentum of the lower leg and feet doesn't bring them back under the core fast enough.

 

Oomph to 1:

Tipping the ankle I assume means inverting the foot, Which is good but ROM in a ski boot severely limits this and the other end of the tibia must abduct when we exceed that few degrees of lateral tipping available from foot inversion.

Pulling the heel up doesn't imply picking the tail off the snow, it's about fore / aft BOS control. Keeping that foot under that hip as much as possible but as the hip flexes the distal end of the femur naturally moves forward and everything below that also must move forward. Ankle flex can take up part of this but the boot flexing under load would require not much weight on the new outside ski. Nor would dorsi flexing that new outside ankle do much to flex the boot. So it needs to be a bit of both. But here's the thing active weight shifts where the tail of that ski is picked up off the snow is perhaps a lingering element of a step turn. It's doable but I question the efficacy of that move.

The O move is Harbonian to a large degree and quite effective but predicated on a the knee tipping ahead of the hip and core. What would happen if the knee abducts while the core simultaneously moves inside the new turn. That allows the dual paths to converge, intersect, and diverge with even less internal force required.

Tactically speaking retraction transitions are becoming more the case but as you pointed out the intent dictates which transition we use.

Oomph to 2:

Upper lower body separation and good leg steering skills pretty much eliminate the need to actively create counter. You can but again tactics would dictate technique. Foot pull back tends to be a corrective move though, so making it habitual suggests some lingering fore / aft stance issues are present. Fixing them eliminates the need for the corrective move.

Oomph to 3;

Tactically speaking a comma shaped turn outcome (line) may require a more active OLE and it opens up this discussion to the idea that where in the new turn we place the strong shaping phase defines how actively we extend that outside leg. Terrain and snow conditions add to the variability of where the shaping phase will occur. So even though it's clear one turn type is the predominant focus, it can all change as we vary the tactics (line & turn shape).

post #118 of 118

JASP I love your last posting.

 

Just to add to clarity a bit on upper and lower body separation/counter.  Keep your pelvis square to the direction the center of mass is flowing and draw the arcs the skis follow with your feet.   Its easy to sense where the cm is going.  If the hips are reasonably level, the direction the cm is flowing is where your head is going.  Simple as that.

 

Keep in mind that not everyone has the mobility and flexibility to keep the relationship of hips with cm and feet with arcs true even on easier terrain.  Most skiers can do a pretty reasonable job of keeping this relationship except near the extremes of their strength.

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