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Sequential Turn Entries and their problems

post #1 of 118
Thread Starter 

Many, many adult recreational skiers are confirmed sequential turners.  They may not know it.  Or maybe they do and this is how they learned to turn in the first place.  They may ski all over the mountain, ski many days a year, and consider themselves accomplished skiers living a skier's lifestyle.  Or not.


Let's say a large number of these skiers were to commit to enough lessons in one season, with the right instructor, to successfully purge the sequential entry and all its necessary corollaries.  At the end of the season they are able to reliably enter short, medium, and long radius turns simultaneously, whatever that entails.  They've got the movement pattern embedded.  They are aware of it.  Let's also say that the details of this path to success will have been different for each and every skier.  Let's assume their instructors were savvy enough to read their needs and give them what they needed to make the change.


Now that they are able to make simultaneous turn entries, how will their experience of skiing change?  Can this overall change be put into terms a recreational skier would understand?  Would it be a game changer for these people?   Or do you find that the issue is so complex that no general statement can be made; in other words, some would find it a game changer, others would not. 


Please elaborate if you like.  

Edited by LiquidFeet - 10/3/13 at 6:31am
post #2 of 118

How about ,,,,


Smooth turn entries enable longer ski days without getting as tired, enable skiing more difficult terrain, enable skiing at faster speeds and with greater stability.




They make skiing more fun.




They make you look cool!

post #3 of 118

for quite a few people the release is a crutch still holding on to the turn somewhat afraid to let go / commit, that indecision hampers their ability to ski ( if they want to) tougher terrain, steeps, trees, bumps, powder etc. Maybe if they can let go , trust their equipment, learn the skills they need to move into the next turn they will feel more at ease seeking out that terrain and getting to explore more of the mountain.


It's very hard to get into a flow  and go from one turn to the next over and over if one is constantly hitting the brakes. Watch for brake lights from the drivers ahead going down a mountain road, I tend to believe the ones I see going down the access roads at the end of the day hitting the brakes hard and quick on every little turn do the same thing skiing.just my .02

post #4 of 118

LF, can you please describe in more detail what you mean by "sequential" turners vs "simultaneous" turners?

post #5 of 118
Thread Starter 

Sequential:  Both skis do not tip at the same time. 

Simultaneous:  Both skis do tip at the same time.

post #6 of 118
Not sure I agree that sequential turn initiation is defined by tipping at same time. I think sequential turn initiation results from incomplete edge release thus hindering ability to turn or tip skis at same time or stepping up on uphill ski to start turn. These types of turns do not work well in bumps and crud.

I have had the good fortune of having a good coach who has helped me change my movement patterns. What has it done for my skiing? It has help me go down the hill smoothly, not get hung up in the bumps, exert less energy while skiing and ski faster in all conditions.
post #7 of 118

Some of the best skiers in the world have sequential entries. IMO that is not the core of the issue. Its more park and ride combined with failure to release the previous turn that is the issue. You can do that with sequential or simultaneous entries.

post #8 of 118
There are times and places where sequential initiations of one sort or another are totally appropriate. Generally speaking, as Rusty pointed out, simultaneous entries are smoother and more efficient, thus less tiring. Efficiency contributes to inspiring confidence and enjoyment.
post #9 of 118
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Sequential:  Both skis do not tip at the same time. 
Simultaneous:  Both skis do tip at the same time.

I think I'd say "untip to release" where you say tip.
post #10 of 118
LiquidFeet's definitions are spot on at the most basic of level. Sequential is a one-two move. One ski goes, then the other. This is most commonly seen in the stem christie where the uphill ski is pushed out to the new edge and then the old outside ski, which has been supporting the body while the stem occurred, is matched to the new outside ski, the christie. This was the way to ski way back in the day. And the step stem is still a very popular drill for those still learning to release simultaneously. It cuts off the top of the turn and lets the student feel the sensation of matched edges from the fall line out. It also works very well in small bumps to teach students rhythm and flow through the mogul field without needing to commit to simultaneous edge change in that terrain.
What benefit can be explained to the recreation skier? Freedom, Flow, and Choices. The freedom to explore the whole mountain no matter what the terrain is. Flow from turn to turn like water requiring less effort. And choices in technique to support the tactic. A sequential turner can only do that. A simultaneous turner can chose to do either depending on what is needed.
post #11 of 118

Very nearly everyone on the hill on a given day, in my experience, has a stem entry [however subtle] and push-off transition that make "simultaneous" turn initiation and smooth skiing impossible.


I think that purging this movement pattern is a huge game-changer for skiers; it was difficult yet very rewarding when I made the change in my own skiing. Establishing balance on the outside ski is the best thing a developing skier can learn, IMO.

Edited by doublediamond223 - 10/3/13 at 8:35am
post #12 of 118
Thread Starter 

Yep, doublediamond, just about every skier.  Steered turns and carved turns both get started one foot at a time (for most skiers).  

How did it change your game?  Can you describe the overall changes so any skier could understand, bypassing the technical details that you had to work through to get the job done?

post #13 of 118

I think Nate hit the nail on the head LQ. It's about options. Jamt also is describing how tactics and intent influence technique choices and options. Perhaps the best outcome of a simultaneous release movement is the confidence to flow like water through transitions. Or maybe we should call it a lack of fear that allows folks to release a turn without worrying so much about ending up sliding to the bottom of the hill in an uncontrolled manner. Whatever you call it is most definitely a game changer.

post #14 of 118

With regards to the stems people are mentioning, if that is the question, then it needs to be clarified that you are discussing entries that have a rotary component.  The ab stems and other variations of a wedge or stem that pop up in some entries, have to do with sequential rotary as much, if not more, then the tipping component.  In that case, the uphill (new outside) ski is rotated and tipped before the downhill one. 


However, what about when tipping of the downhill ski (new inside) precedes sequentially the tipping of the uphill ski?   The reverse order.  This ski generally cannot be rotated sequentially ahead of the other one because the uphill ski is in the way.  So if a rotary component exists, they both would have to pivot together.  However the actual tipping, which is what LF asked about, could very well be sequential with the downhill ski leading the uphill ski


I see absolutely nothing wrong or less effective about sequentially tipping the downhill, new inside, ski ahead of the other one, sequentially.

post #15 of 118

The essence of sequential movement is that one ski takes and entirely different path then the other. In terms of the wedge christie, movement into the new turn is not blocked and so flow can be felt. With a stem christie, movement down the hill is stopped and then started again. We can learn very well to balance against the outside ski here, but we don't get a good feel for flow. In a diverging sequential move, like what borntoski described, flow is not blocked, but it is very hard to learn to balance against the outside ski with this kind of move. Plus, in any terrain that is not perfectly groomed, especially crud, powder, harbor chop, I would not want one ski going one direction and the other going another. I go back to my original thought, which is, learning sequential movement across the skis gives us the choice to use it or not. It gives us the choice to use more rotary or less and it gives us the choice to use more edge angle or less. Whatever technique we need to use to facilitate the tactic we chose is there for us.

post #16 of 118

I'm not suggesting a "diverging" move of any kind

post #17 of 118

I fail to see how you could tip the new inside ski before the new outside ski and not have it diverge. Even if it was only to flat, you have disengaged one ski before the other thus stopping its' turning while the other continues thus creating a divergence. Do you have another way of explaining your thought that might help me understand,

post #18 of 118

what if the ski is unweighted?

post #19 of 118

Which ski? The new outside? Like in a White Pass turn? Sure that would work, but then you don't learn to balance against the outside ski till late in the turn. And a white pass is not a move most recreational skiers can make, 

post #20 of 118

No.  The ski that can be tipped early, the new inside ski is the unweighted one.  Opposite of white pass

post #21 of 118

Ok, then yes, that could work. I love to use the outside ski to outside ski move as a drill, but you also eliminate the use of the inside ski to effect turn radius. You pretty much eliminate it. And you depend on a lot of leg strength to control the outside ski. I'd prefer to think of ways that allowed me to balance over both feet.

post #22 of 118

well that is perhaps another debate, outside ski dominance or not.  Some people are into that, some are not.   It sounds like you are not in the outside ski dominance camp.  Let's not derail the thread on that topic....  


I believe the question put forth on the thread was more about the turn entry, once you've established two skis on the inside edges, in some kind of parallel non wedged state...carving or not...then what you do to shape the turn is the next step...

post #23 of 118

I am most definitely in the camp of weighting the outside ski. I believe it happens above the fall line. I feel my pressure moves from foot to foot and I frequently think of moving into the next turn with my inside knee, but it moves at the same time, rate, and duration as the outside.

But, I agree, let's stay on topic which was about convincing a general public that simultaneous turn entry was better then sequential.

post #24 of 118

so again I ask, what is wrong with sequentially tipping the downhill ski first?


Can you see any advantages to tipping the inside ski first, sequentially?

post #25 of 118

I think what is wrong with it is that you can not do it and maintain ski to snow contact without the skis going in two different directions. I'm standing here, in my kitchen, going back and forth between my sink and the island and the only way I can feel myself tip the inside ski before the outside ski and not go into divergence is to lift my inside foot off the ground. We're talking about a ski that, in theory, should have the majority of the weight on it and through transition we redistribute that weight to the new outside ski. I often have much of that weight out there before my tips reach the fall line, but then my skis move simultaneously. Can you describe to us how you imagine it?

post #26 of 118
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

so again I ask, what is wrong with sequentially tipping the downhill ski first?


Can you see any advantages to tipping the inside ski first, sequentially?

That's a White Pass turn.  It's an advanced skill. Anyone who can do that can easily do a simultaneous edge change.  It's not really the same thing as the kind of sequential turn initiation that a lot of skiers perform most of the time.


Most skiers get stuck a little at the end of the turn.  they hang on to the edge of the old outside ski until they begin to engage the new outside ski.  The brief, almost unnoticible, wedge feels more secure, but, as others have noted, it disrupts their flow down the hill.  The reason they need to do it is that they don't move forward enough through the turn, they end up a little back seated, and if they release the edge too early the tails wash out.  Maybe you can get them to release earlier, but it won't be effective and they won't like it until they learn to balance more accurately.



Edited by Bode Klammer - 10/3/13 at 1:15pm
post #27 of 118

if the downhill ski is not weighted, how is that a white pass turn Bode?

post #28 of 118
Thread Starter 

What I'm reading from most folks is that simultaneous turn entries are better than sequential because of they offer uninterrupted flow, and uninterrupted flow is good because it doesn't wear you out as fast and it feels good.  This selling point for forking over money for lessons wouldn't come across as a strong selling point to most skiers, since they probably think they are already flowing just fine.  I mean, that's why they ski, right?



Is uninterrupted flow the biggie here?  Seems to me that there other positives associated with simultaneous entries.  Some have mentioned other stuff, but it's not getting picked up and discussed.  Does anyone think those other gains are important, too?

post #29 of 118
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

if the downhill ski is not weighted, how is that a white pass turn Bode?

Maybe I mis-read something.  If I release the downhill ski and re-engage the same ski, that's a White Pas turn.  If I release the outside ski and finish my turn on the inside ski, that's just dysfunctional.  It's a skill for advanced skiers, but it's still dysfunctional.



post #30 of 118

BK - what we were, ultimately, discussing, was an unweighting of the inside ski. I was reading that, to the point where it comes or nearly comes off the snow. This is not a white pass. A white pass involves simultaneously tipping of both feet, but not extending the outside leg so that it does leave he snow, then extending it at or after the fall line to engage that ski. Lifting the inside ski would cause and outside to outside move, one of my favorite drills, but then the inside ski would have no effect on the turn no matter how much you tipped or twisted it.

Borntoski - you've posed a lot of questions, how about giving us some of your own ideas on how this works for you so that we may better understand.

Liquid - flow has an artistic quality to it that, your right, might not sell a lot of people on shelling out for lessons. It's kinda like the teaching/learning styles. Find out who your customer is and then sell to them. I math-centric learner might appreciate that it will require less energy. Explorers will appreciate that they can see more of the mountain or ski better in conditions that have hampered them.

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