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Buckle tightness

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
How tight is right? Obviously, so tight that the ankle no longer moves in incorrect. So really, how loose is best?

My boots are Rossi Bandit B2's, set at soft (Flex index 85 according to Rossi.)

I have basically one position between loosest and no movement on the two upper buckles. The arch buckle can only be done on the first notch (RF) and second notch (LF). The tongues are in the "high arch position". The toes are finger tight, just so that the buckle does not move about. Obviously I get a bigger range of motion on the ankle when looser.

On either loose or up one position on the cuff buckles, I can get my foot to slide back and forth. The heel stays down always. When brand new, nothing moved. They were thermoformed, since the RF would fall asleep due to pressure on the arch. It does not do that anymore, but I have this front to back movement.... I can't imagine that the shells are too big.

A second question: would an orthotic correct the sliding "problem"?
post #2 of 19
It sounds like your thermofit liner needs to be refit. I have heard that some of the early Tecnica's had a problem with last years thermofit liners. May be Rossi had the same issue. You should talk to a boot fitter to get a straight answer.

My fitter would not put me in a thermofit liner (Hot Form in Tecnica) because I ski to much and he felt that lots of day's and the thermofit liners were not a good match. This years Tecnica's are supposed to be better.

As far as buckles go, I normally ski with the bottom two just tight enough to put a light pressure on my foot and the top two fairly snug, but again not to tight. If I'm going to really rip the next run I'll tighten the bottom two a turn or two. Do you have micro adjust buckles?

Normally after or during my first run I'll adjust the buckles and leave them along the rest of the day. I don't even touch them during lunch.

[ January 27, 2004, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: Max Capacity ]
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
I think so too.

Does anyone have any experience using a hair dryer to heat them up? or must I go to the store.....
post #4 of 19
I haven't tried the hair-dryer thing but I've been told that a hair-dryer won't heat it up enough to do the job correctly. Also, in-shop heaters have vents along the whole tube so that it will heat the liner evenly throughout. I doubt a hair-dryer would do the same.
post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally posted by BigE:
How tight is right? Obviously, so tight that the ankle no longer moves in incorrect. So really, how loose is best?

My boots are Rossi Bandit B2's, set at soft (Flex index 85 according to Rossi.)

I have basically one position between loosest and no movement on the two upper buckles. The arch buckle can only be done on the first notch (RF) and second notch (LF). The tongues are in the "high arch position". The toes are finger tight, just so that the buckle does not move about. Obviously I get a bigger range of motion on the ankle when looser.

On either loose or up one position on the cuff buckles, I can get my foot to slide back and forth. The heel stays down always. When brand new, nothing moved. They were thermoformed, since the RF would fall asleep due to pressure on the arch. It does not do that anymore, but I have this front to back movement.... I can't imagine that the shells are too big.

A second question: would an orthotic correct the sliding "problem"?
A couple comments not yet made. Scuse me if too basic

1. It does sound like the shells MAY be too big - you're foot shouldn't slide not because the fit isn't right but because the shell shouldn't be that much longer than your foot to permit such movement. My shell size is a full size below my shoe size -my toe touches the end of the boot when not flexed. Anyway, the vendor should have done all this when selling you the boot. What is the shell size and what is your foot size.

2. On the orthotic, it might help some, but better to fix any shell or liner issues.

3. I'm one of those big believers that the best fit and control is achieved with super-thin socks. Are you the same or do you have those thick things?

4. I've got friends with those high arches and who buy bigger boots than they probably should have and I dunno what the heck to tell them.

5. On your question how tight is tight? As you suspect, the correct tightness is essentially no movement of the foot; wiggling your toes is OK, sliding of foot is not.
post #6 of 19
I also wear thin socks. I get them from www.sierratradingpost.com I wear just there $3.50 liner socks. I have been wearing them for years. I do not use toe heaters either. Just a good fitting boot fitted by a GREAT boot fitter. If my feet are ever cold it's because my thermals are cutting off blood flow to my feet.
post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
Out of interest, does anyone know if the Rossi B2 shell at 29.5 is the same as the 30.0 and they just put in smaller liners to make it 29.5? My shoe size is US 13.

Steve_s:

I'm using a thin smartwool sock. OTOH, I prefer thinner as I use either a dress sock or no socks in my skates. They are size 11.

The shells aren't too large -- my toes push on the front until I do up the buckles. I feel the bottom of the curvature of the boot on both sides of the right foot. If I ream the cuff buckles, I feel the curve of the heel cup. Any smaller, and I'd be blowing them out for sure -- in fact I almost did, until the liners compressed a bunch through use...

A couple of thoughts:

1) The B2 has a moveable tongue. It may be set too high, so that there is not enough tongue material in front of the arch to hold the foot back. Solution: move it down and reform it.

2) OTOH, I don't feel the TOP of the foot shifting in the liner, just the bottom. I'm suspecting that the whole liner itself may be moving a bit. So the whole leg/liner is moving forwards in the shell. 2 Solutions: Reform with tongue lower, to get more tongue into the boot at the given buckle position. Tighten the upper cuffs more.

I'll micro-adjust the upper cuffs just until the feeling passes. Hopefully, the ankle will still bend.

Thanks to all that replied
post #8 of 19
I wear women's trouser socks(knee-hi's) on my feet. If I wear anything else my feet sweat and then get cold. I've also found that anything with a seam tucked into my boot (long johns, sweats, whatever) causes problems. I have to have everything except the sock on the outside of the boot. If I do not do this I have pains in my legs and skiing is miserable.

It is possible that tucking stuff into the collar of your boot will make it so you have to buckle it more loosely than you should otherwise be buckling it which could contribute to the sliding you feel in your foot. Try wearing something that you wil not need to tuck, something with a loose enough bottom that it can go on the outside of the boot. Also try a thinner sock, one that willl allow you to tighten the buckles a little more.

I had a similar problem at the beginning of the season with my Solomon Evolutions. In addition to pulling everything out of my boot (long johns, etc) and wearing a thinner sock, I purchased a cheap liner and put it under the liner that was in the boot. It has taken up enough space to make the difference. I am also able to buckle each buckle on the boot 1 or 2 notches tighter because I took the extra stuff out.

[ January 28, 2004, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: skierteach ]
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally posted by BigE:
Out of interest, does anyone know if the Rossi B2 shell at 29.5 is the same as the 30.0 and they just put in smaller liners to make it 29.5? My shoe size is US 13.
The shell of the 29.5 should share the shell size of the 29, not the 30.0. In fact, I've been told that the only difference between whole and half sizes is the stock footbed. That is, both the shell and liner are the same.
post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally posted by Coach13:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BigE:
Out of interest, does anyone know if the Rossi B2 shell at 29.5 is the same as the 30.0 and they just put in smaller liners to make it 29.5? My shoe size is US 13.
The shell of the 29.5 should share the shell size of the 29, not the 30.0. In fact, I've been told that the only difference between whole and half sizes is the stock footbed. That is, both the shell and liner are the same.</font>[/quote]You are correct, boot shells and liners are only made in whole sizes, the .5 size difference is taken up with different footbeds.
post #11 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by skierteach:
It is possible that tucking stuff into the collar of your boot will make it so you have to buckle it more loosely than you should otherwise be buckling it which could contribute to the sliding you feel in your foot. Try wearing something that you will not need to tuck, something with a loose enough bottom that it can go on the outside of the boot. Also try a thinner sock, one that willl allow you to tighten the buckles a little more.
This is a novel approach. Currently I stuff the smartwool sock and the tops of my HH Lifa sport long-johns (they were out of the 3/4 length).

Will definately try it.

Also, thanks to Coach13 and Taylormatt for clearing up the shell size issue. It's one less thing to deal with.

Cheers!
post #12 of 19
I was skiing the Rossi Freeride XXX boot (last season was known as the XX and this season replaced by the B2) - now for sale. Bootfitters have consistently shell-sized me at one full size below my shoe size, and so it went with the Freeride XXX. I had the same problem - my thin feet slid eventually leading to 'black toenail' from the big toe banging into the front of the boot while skiing. So watch your big toes - they know.

My solution has been to get a narrow shell design (different model boot) - same shell size. No 'blacktoe' this year.

And someone is going to pick up some lightly used Freeride XXXs at a bargain price to boot!
post #13 of 19
I think Rossi boots are the strangest fitting boots on the market. They typically have a low instep and are wide at the heel and narrower at the front. Its like the reverse of every other boot on the market. I'm sure they fit some people well, but most people buy them based on the Rossignol name.

The wide heel section doesn't really hold the foot too securely. I had a friend with the BanditXX boots last year who eventually got fed up and went to Salomon Pro Models(Course shell). I went and found Jeff Bergeron's assessment from his long fitting thread last year:

"As far as the fit goes, I am concerned mostly with the design of the shell. Liners pack out over time so the fit of the shell is critical. The Rossi shell were and still are narrower in the forefoot and wide in the heel. This drives me crazy because almost no one has this shape of foot. To deal with this they put a tremendous amount of padding in the heel and ankle area. When this padding wears out you have a sloppy fit."
http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...=003303#000000

So, it may be you are sized correctly, but need a different model of boot. I thought Jeff's response was pretty enlightening as it describes the exact problems you are having.
post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
The toe buckles can be done as tight as I like without any trouble. The arch buckle is in the first notch.

I do feel the curvature of the shell in the ball and heel of the foot. So I may have that Rossi foot afterall. I'll be getting a stance alignment done, so the fit will be checked by an independent source at that time.

Also, I will reform them with a really thin sock, as it seems that the heels may have packed out very early -- only 16 short days! That, or I'm just not tightening the upper buckles enough, as I can make it so that the foot does not move, but then the ankle flexion and consequently depth of motion gets compromised. ( I can squat bodyweight in the gym below parallel, so flexibility is not a problem. )

Hmm. Maybe I'm just not skiing right?

Funny that, when I first got them, I could not wear them for more than 1 hour without my right foot going to sleep! Which is why I thermo'd them.

I'll let you know after this weekend's trials.

thanks for all the help!
post #15 of 19
Well, BigE - alot of discussion - but anyhow:

-It does not sound like the shell size is off; your size 13 flipper is about one size larger than the shell, which by my calcs, one downsize is just about right for most ski boots.

-on buckle tightness - you are making me squeamish. You shouldn't need that much more than moderate buckle tightness to ensure a tight fit. I guess this works where there is a pretty firm, almost grip-like fit of the heel and mid-foot; which you don't apparently have now. Hence the sliding.

- on socks - yeah, those smartwool things are pretty thin, but not the thinnest - try the wigwam "ultimax" in the thinnest form available - that's what I use, like waxed paper, and easy to get in and out of the boot.

-a couple things when buying (your next) boots - most of this is old stuff. First, you need to think not so much how they feel in the shop, as to projecting what they will feel like after 10-15 days of skiing. Its like...."oh yeah, they fit perfect, so I need them tighter cuz they'll pack out", and can you "feel the shell without hardpoints". Second, forget about your toes touching the end - so many people think this is wierd and go up a size, and it packs out and that's that. You don't ski with your toes, and your toes won't (or shouldn't touch) when your weight is flexed on the tongue like it should be. In a nutshell, ski boots that fit you are generally not the most comfortable things when you buy them. They aren't evening slippers. Third, try on alot of different boots - you'll know better what "the one" to pick is. Fourth, a boot doesn't have to be "perfect", but any defect in fit should be identifiable when you buy it as one that can be corrected.

-you're skiing style has little to do with whether your feet slide. (more the reverse - you'll ski even worse with a suboptimal fit). I've experienced very minimal sliding on rare off-balance jolts, and I don't even like that.

-go ahead and try a reform with thin socks; if not, there's all sorts of tricks with heat guns, strips of foam, footbeds, duct tape, etc. that a boot-fitter can use to adjust fit.
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
The solution is simple:

1: The tongue needed to be moved back down to the "reg" position. I moved it up prior to skiing on it. Consequently, there was not enough material left in front of the arch, and the tongue thickness infront of the ankle needed to be increased to hold the heel more firmly.

Lesson 1: Ski before adjusting liner.

2: The cuff buckle tightness in relation to each other must be correct. Too tight on top means the lower one gets too loose. Same if too tight on bottom. If both are too tight, the shell stops flexing properly.

Lesson 2: Distribute the shell pressure equally between the top and bottom cuff buckles.

This is best done without a lot of baggage in the boot. Use thin socks only.

Thanks for all the help. It's made noticeable difference in my skiing already!
post #17 of 19
Thread Starter 
I just got conformables! Wow, do they make a difference in feel! I now need to ski on them to check out the buckle tightness needs.

There is no longer any pressure across the right arch. It appears that in the shop, the buckles can be way looser and the heel is held in place nicely. I never thought that footbeds would make such a huge difference in the way the boot actually fits and feels. Remember, this was a boot I was quite honestly going to have blown out.

This is for sure the finest boot I've ever had -- not that I've had many that actually fit properly..... But I think this one does.
post #18 of 19
If you still have pressure along your instep your bootfitter should be able to lower the boot board inside the boot so the liner/footbed sit lower in the boot.

I had new Instaprint footbeds done this weekend and they boosted my foot high enough that I was quickly losing circulation (due to pressure on those big veins on top of the foot). Boot guy ground down the boot board and it made a world of difference.
post #19 of 19
Thread Starter 
Boots now aligned, custom footbed. With Smartwool socks, enough play in the boot for the foot to twist and the little toe would hurt. Buckles set tighter to accomodate thinner footbed. Tongue moved down to regular arch position.

Now: New socks.

The difference between thin and really thin is huge. Buckles are far tighter to accomodate. Both tongues are now set at low arch. The buckles are very tight now -- 5 notches in.

The effect: This boot is an exo-skeleton.

Arch pressure was a huge problem before getting new thinner footbeds -- the heel now goes all the way back into the boot -- which means tighter buckles.

In short, without footbeds, there is no correct answer: boots are either sloppy, or "pre-pronate" your feet. With footbeds, the boot can support the foot.

Thanks! I'm done with this one!
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