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Americas Cup - Page 2

post #31 of 51

I keep wondering why people are so against race series that showcase the latest in technologies. It's analogous to F1 banning certain technologies, golf banning the latest drivers and balls. Let Darwinism rule, if the racing becomes too expensive, too boring, too predictable, then let the market decide and it will either flourish (and the trickle down effect) or it will die a deserved death. There will always be rich guys like Ellison who will foot the bill for a while, and their ego-bound buddies willing to take up the challenge, and there will always be an interest in traditional racing as well.

 

I am not into sailing, but sweet rollerblading Jesus, a 50mph carbon fiber catamaran grabs my attention.

post #32 of 51

I'm all for technology, but when only 4 boats show up, it's a problem.

post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I'm all for technology, but when only 4 boats show up, it's a problem.

 

Yeah, I agree.   More boats and domestic crews would make it more interesting.  Regardless, it is the technology and element of danger (as in death) that keep people tuned in.   When the high bow hull comes crashing into the water and a boat recovers, it is as exciting as Bode pulling out a one ski recovery at 85 MPH.  Unfortunately for one sailor from the Swedish boat, the ultimate price was paid.

post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I'm all for technology, but when only 4 boats show up, it's a problem.

 

 

But that's where the Darwinism kicks in. It will either wither and die, and usually be reborn as something else, or it may hang on as a fringe event for the uber-rich and something will come along and fill the void.

 

I guess I am not so big on traditionalism.

post #35 of 51

Timely ans strangely coincidental, this link was just posted on the SRD ski racing group on Linkedin. Al lthe America's Cup races are posted (not surprisingly) on Youtube and race(s) recap on this site:

 

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/09/26/34th-americas-cup-complete-race-by-race-replay/?goback=.gde_1918723_member_276816233#!

post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity View Post
 

I keep wondering why people are so against race series that showcase the latest in technologies. It's analogous to F1 banning certain technologies, golf banning the latest drivers and balls. Let Darwinism rule, if the racing becomes too expensive, too boring, too predictable, then let the market decide and it will either flourish (and the trickle down effect) or it will die a deserved death. There will always be rich guys like Ellison who will foot the bill for a while, and their ego-bound buddies willing to take up the challenge, and there will always be an interest in traditional racing as well.

 

I am not into sailing, but sweet rollerblading Jesus, a 50mph carbon fiber catamaran grabs my attention.

For the love of gymnastics, ^ bold line says it all!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I'm all for technology, but when only 4 boats show up, it's a problem.

 

Why is it a problem?  

 

Of the 4 that could play there was more adventure at this 34th AC than a Go Pro Hero3 could capture (which will be promoted to draw greater US share for the 35th). 

 

I would think the "problem" would be to remain small (as in boat size and thinking) and miss the potential reach of advancement.  Besides, its a joke considering equitable participation and greater inclusion in the ultra expensive game of yacht racing.  This is not kids on a soccer field.  Everyone can't play.   

 

Anything we have owing to technological advancement comes with exclusivity and initial high cost of participation - notably when developed for competitive advantage.  And its damn fun when I can watch it all play out, in this case, sailing at the margin. 

 

So let the big cats slug it out.  Fine if its only 4 again representing at the 35th AC, spending over $200 million in budget for the AC72 (add more for TV production and other organizational expenses and promotions).  These are greatest teams of sailors using the finest technology which is THE story line for american viewing interest.     

 

Certainly what is not a problem is a shortage of billionaires with egos that will fund the required cost of participation and R & D that will eventually trickle down into everything John Q uses or sports with.                 

post #37 of 51

        If I remember correctly at one time the boat and the sails had to be made in the country of origin meaning that if I challenge you my boat must be made where I live.

     Also the races were very exciting but only 40 minutes long. I would like to see races of one hour, and more the course in different directions to show how good the

    sailors were. There was a lot of excitement for the people who watched and understood the races. I don't think there was very much publicity the America's Cup in

    the USA.  As someone said before much of New Zealand was watching and most of the US didn't know about it.

post #38 of 51

I think the fact this thread even exists makes this AC a huge success - its the first time sailing grabbed the attention of non-sailors.

 

A few points:

 

1) 3 challengers for the LV is not a bad turn out.  Not great...but historically there was only 1 defender, and 1 challenger.  So from that perspective participation isnt decreasing - its increasing.

1a) the ACWS had 7 teams, plus the Red Bull Youth Cup. - a first.

2) Longer races - could have done, but this would have slowed the boats considerably - as it was they are pushing human limits for endurance as grinders.  Its not widely known, but some of the grinders were not even sailors - some were olympic rowers etc.  Brought on board purely for their strenght and endurance. 

3) Different courses - this course was baiscally a classic "Windward/leward" course with 2 reaching legs (first/final).  This is a standard set for yacht racing, and is the most techncial course that can be laid - thus a solid and traditional choice for an AC.

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post

        If I remember correctly at one time the boat and the sails had to be made in the country of origin meaning that if I challenge you my boat must be made where I live.
     Also the races were very exciting but only 40 minutes long. I would like to see races of one hour, and more the course in different directions to show how good the
    sailors were. There was a lot of excitement for the people who watched and understood the races. I don't think there was very much publicity the America's Cup in
    the USA.  As someone said before much of New Zealand was watching and most of the US didn't know about it.

In actual numbers, I'm guessing more Americans saw it. smile.gif We forget how much bigger our population is than NZ... Not to take anything away from them at all. Per capital by far and away the greatest sailing nation.
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
 

I think the fact this thread even exists makes this AC a huge success - its the first time sailing grabbed the attention of non-sailors.

 

A few points:

 

1) 3 challengers for the LV is not a bad turn out.  Not great...but historically there was only 1 defender, and 1 challenger.  So from that perspective participation isnt decreasing - its increasing.

1a) the ACWS had 7 teams, plus the Red Bull Youth Cup. - a first.

2) Longer races - could have done, but this would have slowed the boats considerably - as it was they are pushing human limits for endurance as grinders.  Its not widely known, but some of the grinders were not even sailors - some were olympic rowers etc.  Brought on board purely for their strenght and endurance. 

3) Different courses - this course was baiscally a classic "Windward/leward" course with 2 reaching legs (first/final).  This is a standard set for yacht racing, and is the most techncial course that can be laid - thus a solid and traditional choice for an AC.

 

There's still only one challenger and one defender. The LV cup determines who the challenger is. It's had other names in the past. I won't say there has always been more than one defender, but at least in my lifetime there have almost always been trials (pre-1983 at least, some of the weird mis-match races have had only one defender). In Perth I think there were 25 boats challenging for the Cup. In Newport '83 it was something more like 12 challengers and 4 defenders.

post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

 

There's still only one challenger and one defender. The LV cup determines who the challenger is. It's had other names in the past. I won't say there has always been more than one defender, but at least in my lifetime there have almost always been trials (pre-1983 at least, some of the weird mis-match races have had only one defender). In Perth I think there were 25 boats challenging for the Cup. In Newport '83 it was something more like 12 challengers and 4 defenders.

True....but before that....there was no LV...just a defender and challenger.  I was writing in terms of the cups entire history.  People get upset all the time that the AC is "just about money now"....it always was eltist to the extreme.  The extreme money aspect is not new.

post #42 of 51

I have nothing against money. I'm all for it. But when it is so expensive that nobody can afford to race you, how can you get good at racing? I'm not saying they should be racing Solings, but there has to be a middle ground. On the other hand, they don't give a crap what I think and they'll just do it how they do it. That's fine, you can probably still go watch 12-meters race in Newport today if you want.

post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I have nothing against money. I'm all for it. But when it is so expensive that nobody can afford to race you, how can you get good at racing?

Kinda where salary caps come from eh?

post #44 of 51
post #45 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I have nothing against money. I'm all for it. But when it is so expensive that nobody can afford to race you, how can you get good at racing? I'm not saying they should be racing Solings, but there has to be a middle ground. On the other hand, they don't give a crap what I think and they'll just do it how they do it. That's fine, you can probably still go watch 12-meters race in Newport today if you want.

 

The earlier boats were beautiful as well. My favorite is Ranger, designed by Starling Burgess, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Starling_Burgess) one of the great geniuses of all time whom almost no one has ever heard of. This is a contemporary replica:

http://megayachtnews.com/2011/06/superyacht-6-j-class-yachts/#axzz2gFClhN1C

 

Granted these new catamarans, and all of their predecessors for that matter, are prohibitively expensive but how do you think the crews of Oracle and the Emirates boat got good at racing? I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did time in Solings.

post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post
 

Granted these new catamarans, and all of their predecessors for that matter, are prohibitively expensive but how do you think the crews of Oracle and the Emirates boat got good at racing? I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did time in Solings.

 

I mean getting good at racing their Catamarans. It seems to me (and I'm no expert on it) that part of why Oracle was getting spanked is because NZ had more experience racing against other cats in the LV cup. They had a better idea of what works and what doesn't. They knew from experience that foiling upwind would pay off for them, etc.

 

Definitely those sailors have sailed everything from Optimists to round the world sleds.

post #47 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

 

I mean getting good at racing their Catamarans. It seems to me (and I'm no expert on it) that part of why Oracle was getting spanked is because NZ had more experience racing against other cats in the LV cup. They had a better idea of what works and what doesn't. They knew from experience that foiling upwind would pay off for them, etc.

 

Definitely those sailors have sailed everything from Optimists to round the world sleds.

 

I see your point. I don't know where the "incubator" class of hydrofoil catamarans might be found. As far as I know there is nothing comparable in the sailing world although I imagine there will be a rush now to design one. Only the big round the world catamarans and tris as raced particularly by the French come to mind but they are a different beast altogether.

post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post
 

 

I see your point. I don't know where the "incubator" class of hydrofoil catamarans might be found. As far as I know there is nothing comparable in the sailing world although I imagine there will be a rush now to design one. Only the big round the world catamarans and tris as raced particularly by the French come to mind but they are a different beast altogether.

C-Class Cats foil - this is known as the "Little America's Cup" - and its not for ameteurs.  A lot of technology developed here - goes "up" to the real AC - hard wing sails for example.  These boats have been foiling for a few years now.

 

http://vimeo.com/75282563 or

 

 

 

Moths of course -

 

 

 

 

 

And now you got production high end cats that you can just buy:

 

 

And of course...for those on a budget...and like familair territory....you can even foil your Laser now....(yes its a stock Laser except for the foils of course)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But believe it or not - alot of the guys on the AC boats are not even sailors. ie the "Grinders" are hired for their strength and endurance.  Some were Olympic Rowers etc.

post #49 of 51

I wouldn't say 'a lot'. I'd say the grinders. Kind of like sprinters in bob sled events, eh?

post #50 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 

I wouldn't say 'a lot'. I'd say the grinders. Kind of like sprinters in bob sled events, eh?

Exactley. 

post #51 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
 

C-Class Cats foil - this is known as the "Little America's Cup" - and its not for ameteurs.  A lot of technology developed here - goes "up" to the real AC - hard wing sails for example.  These boats have been foiling for a few years now.

 

http://vimeo.com/75282563 or

 

 

 

Moths of course -

 

 

 

 

 

And now you got production high end cats that you can just buy:

 

 

And of course...for those on a budget...and like familair territory....you can even foil your Laser now....(yes its a stock Laser except for the foils of course)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But believe it or not - alot of the guys on the AC boats are not even sailors. ie the "Grinders" are hired for their strength and endurance.  Some were Olympic Rowers etc.

 

So, there you go! 

 

Shows you how long I've been out of sailing.

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