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Do you teach one all-purpose turn initiation? - Page 3

post #61 of 75

hehehe I think you may have misunderstood the teaching conundrum I was presenting, but its ok.  


whether your thrust your CoM across or let it be carried there is somewhat irrelevant, though I definitely agree with avoiding a thrust for a variety of reasons.  


The difficult thing to do is so get upside with pressure and centripetal forces created so that you actually are upside down and not falling down.

post #62 of 75
I would say eliminating the need for additional thrust is very important. Less defensive braking that kills momentum being the key here. How you finish that turn dictates what you must do in the initiation phase of the next turn.
post #63 of 75

if we want to talk about turn initiations, how to do it without thrusting your CoM across should be part of the discussion.  Its all about the release at the end of the old turn, I agree on that.  


There is more than one way to do that for sure.  The good old ILE thing that has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum, is an option too, as long as it doesn't become a push.  Agree with you that pushing is usually a result of not having an effective release, because the old turn lingered too long, lost turn forces, etc..


The main problem with pushing is that there is a tendency to push too hard, resulting in unwanted unweighting, or unwanted projections down the hill, which destroys the upside down centripetal forces mentioned earlier.  


However, even without a push its possible to topple or fall down the hill and lose the upside down centripetal forces.  What else needs to happen?

Edited by borntoski683 - 9/13/13 at 4:21pm
post #64 of 75

Extending to maintain contact with the snow should not be mistaken for creating lateral forces though. You don't need to bend the ski as much as let them slide along their long axis. At least not until you reach the shaping phase.

post #65 of 75



No heel pushing!  Thumbs Up


I think allowing the CoM to move with the skis a bit more along the long axis rather then hucking oneself down the fall line (or allowing it to topple too much down the fall line) is part of a good init.  But certain tactical situations can vary.


The interesting thing about a heel push is that I think its often done when skiers were not successful to get upside down with some kind of steering angle and centripetal forces.  So they push out to try to get the forces instead.


Some might call this ability to get pressure on the new outside ski as early angulation or counter-balancing, though I know that's a scary word for some because it inspires images of park and ride hip dumpers.   But nonetheless, its a skill about allowing the CoM to flow down the while also making sure the CoM is brining pressure to the new outside ski without a push out for it.




what else?

post #66 of 75
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

. A drill I learned while teaching in Aspen is across the hill sideslips. The first half of the turn is performed with the skis pivoted into the fall line but with no edge engagement. The last half of the turn is performed as a carved J turn. It feels similar to the classic edge check we used to do at the end of a skidded turn. It's just done much earlier in the turn. I see variations of that in reaching slalom race turns where the racer is off the snow during the initiation phase. Think uncoiling from an anticipated stance and landing set up to immediately shape the rest of the turn. Just sayin...

I love this one. I started experimenting with this last season while working out some alignment issues after seeing some footage of something Michel Sebastien was doing.
post #67 of 75

So getting back to the LF's original post.  I feel like we have identified a number of skills or components of turn inits with a variety of approaches listed off by everyone.  I'm not sure that really qualifies as one all-purpose init as asked.  There have been many discussions in the past about OLR vs ILE, for example, two variations for turn inits.  We have touched on pivot entries vs non pivot entries, another two variations.  And I'm sure those are not the only variations, for example inside vs outside ski biases, etc.  And many of these variations have a spectrum of blending possibilities in between.  


Here are some of the component goals for turn inits I feel like we have identified thus far in no particular order and not necessarily consensus:


  • releasing downhill ski
  • tipping both skis
  • moving CoM across
  • establishing steering angle with pressure on new edges
  • pivot entries if desired
  • establish states of balance and movement such that balance will be maintained in the future through the turn
  • establish states of posture such that centripetal pressures can be created or maintained presently and in the future through the turn
  • establish steering angles and edge angles such that steering/shaping can be done post init if desired


If anyone can contribute to that list, please do.


The reality is that there is more than one way to accomplish these things.  For example, some cautions have been made about not pushing out to bend the ski, about not thrusting the CoM across to the new inside and other suggestions.  I think basically the above goals can be met a number of different ways, however some movements that I might consider ineffective might detract.  For example, if someone pushes their CoM across, they may lose pressure on their inside edges, so doesn't meet the goals listed.


I think there are some systems out there that do narrow down the possibilities in order to keep things focused.  Having focus on a narrow system can be very good for mastery, but not so good for adaptability.  Nonetheless, there are numerous ways to approach things, and I think as long as the above goals are being met effectively, then its a good turn init method for the situation at hand.  


Things can get more specific when your intent is more specific, for example if your intent is arc-to-arc, then maybe pivot entry is not allowed.   Or skiing bumps might prefer retraction style releases and transition, etc.  There are also differences of opinion and/or style on certain things....  For example, I intentionally left off the list outside ski bias, even though I'm a huge believer in outside ski bias generally speaking.  My list of components for myself above would probably include more direct and specific language that includes establishment of pressure on the outside ski inside edge.  I tend to favor a retraction style release and transition, so my personal l list would probably be a bit more specific then the above.  My personal list definitely includes high-C turn shaping also, which basically allows only a tiny amount of pivot entry, if any, unless I'm going to skip high-C shaping out of necessity of some kind.  


But nonetheless, there are numerous ways to approach it and I think if the above components are satisfied, then you can have an effective turn.

post #68 of 75

Rather than trying to memorize or inventory a list of positions or movements to initiate, what if we flip the approach and assess for a skier's five skills during turn phases?


Not to devalue all the analysis work here - I think it's great to be able to figure out how people can initiate. But is this realistically a mental model you can work with when you're on a hill? If your learners are in the terrain where you want them to perform, e.g. in bumps, does it matter what all the ways to initiate are? my current premise is no - I want to figure out how to get my participants centered and mobile, turning the ski using the lower joints, and balancing over their outside edge. 


I seriously don't mean to be a buzzkill--I just don't really understand the intent from a teaching perspective here...?

Edited by Metaphor_ - 9/14/13 at 4:30pm
post #69 of 75

That was stated in the very first reply to this thread, a position I absolutely disagree with.  That is a cop out IMHO.   But if you would like to present more information about how to teach something to init their turns by just teaching the 4 skills, then by all means please tell us, we are listening!


The 4 skills of course have to be used to achieve the goals I mentioned and natural development of those 4 skills is still good and beneficial and part of the whole process, and while teaching someone these concepts, continual reference to the 4 skills should be made, absolutely!


But if you just give those skills to skiers in a general way and don't tell them how to apply them they will be out randomly guessing at what they need to do to start a turn.


I specifically left out specifics of how to achieve those goals so that the skills can be applied in myriad of ways to acheive them, nonetheless in order to cook good ski turns, you need more information then rotary, edging, balance, pressure.


If you tell someone, good food is made from ingredients, preparation and presentation, its going to take them a long time through trial and error to figure out what works and mostly only talented people will figure it out, a lot of people will flounder around trying different combinations of ingredients, preparation methods and presentation styles before they could ever become a chef.  No I"m pretty sure that at chef school they get into more detail about how to combine those ingredients in certain ways in order to achieve culinary goals.  Ski turns are no different.


But yes if you want to avoid the topic you can easily just go teach the skills and probably help someone improve one of the skill areas, no doubt.  Whether they are applying those skills in the most effective way is another question.


For example, downhill ski release. Is there any doubt in your mind that we need to teach that concept?  its not one of the 4 skills, though it does use some of the 4 skills to accomplish it.  Why are the other goals any different?

post #70 of 75

bts, I wholeheartedly agree that it would be unproductive to simply give skiers information about the skills. I'm suggesting that teaching positions or movements doesn't lead to good skiing. Rather, learning to blend the 5 skills over the turn phases does lead to effective, efficient skiing. As far as what that means--CSIA courses devote a good chunk of time to teaching instructors on the canadian technical base, and I don't think I could sum it up in a paragraph. 


Skidude made mention of your chef analogy in the PSIA thread (i.e. there may be a PSIA issue with understanding what those skills entail); perhaps my comments are just a reflection of different approaches to how the skills fit together over turn phases, and how we would use tactics to develop. The idea of teaching ways to initiate, as in showing a whole whack of discrete "initiation methods" and developing them one by one, sounds odd and contrary to my understanding of CSIA's skill-based model. 


I think the other point of note is that PSIA doesn't consider timing and coordination to be a skill. Yet it's fundamental to identifying when and how much you apply each of the other skills throughout a turn. So maybe that's the big gap that explains why I can't recall seeing a CSIA lesson on learning all the ways to initiate? (I've been in lessons and delivered lessons where we focus on the releasing edges phase because participants happened to demonstrate a skill-based issue in that phase, and we use tactics to develop skills to clean up that phase where issues exist--but I've never taken or delivered a lesson on a bunch of ways to initiate)

post #71 of 75
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


I think the other point of note is that PSIA doesn't consider timing and coordination to be a skill. 


D.I.R.T.  would cover that... spelled sideways, it's P.S.I.A. :)

post #72 of 75
Just to be clear, I am absolutely not suggesting anyone teach positions. I teach movements. Releasing the downhill ski is a good example
post #73 of 75
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

The idea of teaching ways to initiate, as in showing a whole whack of discrete "initiation methods" and developing them one by one, sounds odd and contrary to my understanding of CSIA's skill-based model. 


I don't believe I was suggesting a whole wack of discrete initiation methods either.  Rather I'm trying to suggest that there are various movements, such as releasing the downhill ski, which are important to happen at certain parts of turns.  In this thread we're talking about turn inits.  Its very narrow minded to say there is only one way to init turns.  On the other hand, there are some things that generally do need to happen, with some variations depending on the situation.  How you go about teaching that or helping your students discover that is entirely up to you, but I do believe as teachers we should be trying to help them with more than just teaching them how to rotate better, or edge better, etc.  How we coordinate those things into movements for various parts of a ski turn definitely matters and have been well understood by high level skiers for a long time.  


What I can say is that as instructors we can ask ourselves, what is the purpose of a turn init?  What movements need to happen to make it happen.  What are the key points, the dos and don'ts?  That's why they pay us the big bucks to know this stuff.  haha.

post #74 of 75

Understanding the outcome of movements and maneuvers has more to do with tactics than technique. The incidental skill biases being expressed through our movements are important in understanding the technical elements of a turn but matching technique to intent requires us to think tactically about what we are doing. The tactical decision to vary our initiation thus precedes our execution of whatever movement / maneuver we decide will result in us staying on a chosen line. None of that happens without experiencing what each option produces. Memory thus plays a huge role in our tactical decisions.

post #75 of 75
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
None of that happens without experiencing what each option produces. Memory thus plays a huge role in our tactical decisions.


Thumbs Up Golden! 

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