Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Not sure I understand why momentum wouldn't dictate where you are along that gradient BTS. Here's why I say that.
If we are moving we will always have some forward momentum and if no other force is acting upon us, our direction of travel would not change. Thus any change in direction we experience is always relative to the force vector representing where our momentum would carry us. Exactly what we choose to do always comes back to that simple but fundamental idea.
quoting myself again..., note the underlined text....
Originally Posted by borntoski683
Of course some of us are trying really hard to tip early and bending the ski to establishing steering angle, even at slow speeds and tight radius..... And others of us are making almost no attempt to tip early, even at high speeds.... so there is quite a wide spectrum of possibility there and some of it is driven by individual style. On a race course, stivots are done at very high speed. I've seen a few high end videos of various instructor dudes over the years doing rather pivoty, springy turns, going quite fast. Conversely, I've seen very slow turns entered with tipping from the get go, not that arcing is necessarily established per say, but nonetheless, a steered with tipping and smearing entry.
So there is quite a wide spectrum there between the two extremes and I don't think I completely agree that forward momentum dictates where you are in that spectrum, though it is certainly an influence; but I do think that grey area in the middle is where people can play around and find the finesse that works for them. Some people will bias towards the pivoty end of the spectrum and some will bias towards the tipping, bending and smearing end. Personal style there, and in some cases ideology.
since we are always moving forward, then its always possible to tip and bend the ski to establish steering angle rather than pivoting and tipping (as the two extreme ends of the spectrum have been noted). The question at hand has more to do with whether you will be able to execute the turn shape you want.
Now, if you need to turn quicker than that will allow, then tactics will require, regardless of the speed, to pivot, such as a stivot on a race course. So if you want to add to Bud's idea, something about needing to make a turn that is tighter than tipping and bending with the current momentum will allow, then great, agree 100%. Maybe he meant that and I didn't understand it completely. I view the forward momentum as less relevant then the intended turn shape.
Aside from the general notion that there is definitely a hard line where no amount of tipping, bending and smearing will make a turn happen with the tight turn shape needed in the space allowed, etc.. There is really a large grey area and most of us are nowhere near that hard line, we are doing things based on our styles and ideologies that takes us closer to one end or the other of that grey area, though the turn shape intent does contribute to what we might do. And I don't think that there is one particular part of that grey area that is more "right" then another except for racing where optimizing speed is a priority. On the open slope, having fun and feeling good in safe way is the priority, so as far as I'm concerned go to any part of that grey area you want!
Myself, my goal is to carve or scarve every single turn, that is my style and ideology. Do i pivot sometimes, YES! Mainly I try to avoid pivots because for me, pivots disconnect my edges from the snow and thus take away control opportunities.
For me, if I think I can make a turn shape happen with scarving/smearing/steering, then my init is absolutely started with tippping and bending the ski, and POSSIBLY a very tiny little pivot at the top to make sure the ski is not edge locked, though more finesse should be able to acheive that smearing skid angle without the pivot, but hey...it happens. Whether its a tiny little pivot to establish very small skid angle or a brushed edge with all focus on zero pivot...my goal is to steer/smear/scarve the turn shape I want rather then pivot or stivot into position. Speed irrelevant. Turn shape matters more.
Now if I am in a situation where no amount of steering is going to get my skis onto the line they need to be on, then a pivot is on order and there are numerous opportunities for that, but my style and ideology is always trying to see if I can do it without resorting to a pivot, the same way I'm always trying to find the perfect golf swing.
My personal observation is that most skiers on the hill are not even coming close to the full turning potential of steering/smearing/scarving and they resort to pivoting too easily to get on the line they want. But that is the grey area for everyone to experiment with and if you like to be pivoty for your own reasons, it doesn't bother me, enjoy yourself. But there is a lot of room there for personal interpretation of fun, I really don't think most people are actually right at the line of what is possible and only pivoting when absolutely necessary as some others might be attempting to do. There is a large grey area. And a fun area to experiment with.