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Learning to ski this winter, but can't decide between AT or Tele... - Page 4

post #91 of 130

I agree it's all skiing, and the fun is subjective, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone starting skiing, and the simplest way to get a feel is to look at what most (almost everyone?) is doing.  It's not like you couldn't do anything on the fixed heel skis, besides can't you telemark ski with the touring bindings?  If someone said they didn't find skiing turns interesting, maybe they would feel different if they tried it.  If you get the touring bindings, you can ski however.  And I think turning without the fixed heel would take a lot of the fun away, almost all the time, and that a very large percentage of people will feel the same.  If I wanted to do real steep stuff I would just hop turn everything, and when the heel is fixed it's easier and the turns can be faster.  I guess I just don't see the advantage of it, other than if you were bored, wanted to learn something new, liked the workout, or just liked turning like that.

post #92 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ski123 View Post
 

I agree it's all skiing, and the fun is subjective, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone starting skiing, and the simplest way to get a feel is to look at what most (almost everyone?) is doing.  It's not like you couldn't do anything on the fixed heel skis, besides can't you telemark ski with the touring bindings?  If someone said they didn't find skiing turns interesting, maybe they would feel different if they tried it.  If you get the touring bindings, you can ski however.  And I think turning without the fixed heel would take a lot of the fun away, almost all the time, and that a very large percentage of people will feel the same.  If I wanted to do real steep stuff I would just hop turn everything, and when the heel is fixed it's easier and the turns can be faster.  I guess I just don't see the advantage of it, other than if you were bored, wanted to learn something new, liked the workout, or just liked turning like that.

 

No. you can't properly weight the back ski. With one exception, AT boots don't have a bellows. You can tippy toe fake it, but it isn't a telemark turn even if from your perspective of having never tried and not knowing of what you speak might insist it is... after all, it's your opinion. Opinions in and of themselves are best formed by personal experience. You can also destroy your touring binding as it's not meant to handle the torque generated by turning on the two structural pins of a tech binding or the bar of a frame touring binding... or a teley binding with a free pivot feature with the binding in 'climbing/released' mode.

 

So, did you actually read my last post in it's entirety (remember the part where I said I really don't care one way or the other how anyone chooses to get down the hill, or that alpining makes one a better teley'er and visa versa?), or are you just into arguing? If it makes you feel better, ok... you win. Here you go. Nobody should waste there time telemarking if they really want to 'ski' with maximal control. It is not the best way to learn to ski as it is in fact, more difficult with a steeper learning curve for more people. Now that I've agreed with your opinion (again), maybe we could give it a rest?

post #93 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post
 

 

Yep....and the best stuff can rival or better alpine gear on the down and anything from three pins, tele to even running shoes on  the up.

 

Woah, let's not get crazy here.

post #94 of 130

and I was thinking it was the running shoes that would catch some shit :D)

 

Can I say more comfy on the down? :ROTF

 

Do I need to link the videos to make my point on  "better" :duel:

post #95 of 130

"AT boots don't have a bellows."

 

Hu?  TLT5 has a bellows.  Not much of one but it is a bellow.

 

"You can tippy toe fake it, but it isn't a telemark turn"

 

Loose heel, pegged toe.   No matter what the boot, drop the knee and you got a tele turn I thought.  What did I miss?  

 

I've tele'd (or thought I had) in low cut leather boots and three pins and in rock hard AT boots with no flex.

post #96 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post
 

"AT boots don't have a bellows."

 

Hu?  TLT5 has a bellows.  Not much of one but it is a bellow.

 

"You can tippy toe fake it, but it isn't a telemark turn"

 

Loose heel, pegged toe.   No matter what the boot, drop the knee and you got a tele turn I thought.  What did I miss?  

 

I've tele'd (or thought I had) in low cut leather boots and three pins and in rock hard AT boots with no flex.

 

What you've missed is pressuring the rear ski through the ball of the foot so that you can get an edge in.  Otherwise you're doing the notorious "fake-a-mark" and you will have to suffer people pointing and laughing derisively.  And you won't get the best chicks.  

http://www.google.com/search?q=fakeamark

 

True fact.

 

:cool

post #97 of 130

Ok, I'll bite ;)    Since I know the whole chick thing has been  totally misrepresented :newkeyboard:

 

What is the differenec between using an edge pressured by a AT boot with zero flex but still pressured onto an edge and a Tele boot that has soem flex and splits the pressure going to the edge between the same toe are as a rigid AT boot and a semi rigid moden tele boot?

 

Answering for myself as I am prone to do :D

I'd say nothing. Same technique I used in a low cut leather and 3 pins on my Epoke 900s bitd.  The boots only defind the foot position not the technique.

post #98 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post
 

Ok, I'll bite wink.gif    Since I know the whole chick thing has been  totally misrepresented :newkeyboard:

 

What is the differenec between using an edge pressured by a AT boot with zero flex but still pressured onto an edge and a Tele boot that has soem flex and splits the pressure going to the edge between the same toe are as a rigid AT boot and a semi rigid moden tele boot?

 

Answering for myself as I am prone to do :D

I'd say nothing. Same technique I used in a low cut leather and 3 pins on my Epoke 900s bitd.  The boots only defind the foot position not the technique.

 

If you can pressure an edge with AT gear like you can with tele gear, then I'd say there's no difference (other than possibly blowing up the AT binding), but I have both tele gear and AT gear and I'm going to say it's prit-near impossible to do.  So there.  :duel:

 

And chicks dig me more when I tele.  :snowfight



Edited to add: you can't flex your foot and ankle enough in AT boots to properly pressure the rear ski.
Edited by Bob Lee - 9/15/13 at 3:25pm
post #99 of 130

Geezus Bob we both know chicks aren't impressed by even a hot, young and really good tele skier.

 

I'm thinking they are just taking pity for the "kid" on the slow bus.  Get use to it.  Happens a lot with white hair like mine  :D

 

They make a locking toe on AT gear for a reason but seems to work OK for a tele turn when needed....no matter how inefficent one might be  :snowfightfor an old guy like myself.

 

Seriously I'll give you the
degree" of tele turn.  But wasn't a tele turn 75 years ago the same tele turn as one in modern gear today?  If the degree of edge control definds the tele turn then they aren't the same turn.  If the basic body position is the same, short of exact foot, ankle, knee and hip position, l'd call them all (bent kjnee stuff)  tele turns.  In fact I like this even better...."its all sking...you turn left, then you turn right" :yahoo:

 

Some gear allows you to do that easier than others...some times!

post #100 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post

Geezus Bob we both know chicks aren't impressed by even a hot, young and really good tele skier.

I'm thinking they are just taking pity for the "kid" on the slow bus.  Get use to it.  Happens a lot with white hair like mine  biggrin.gif

roflmao.gif I'm probably older than you, so you got me.

Quote:
But wasn't a tele turn 75 years ago the same tele turn as one in modern gear today? 

But I'm not that old! wink.gif But it might be fair to say that the equipment has changed a lot, so technique changes, right?

Quote:
"its all sking...you turn left, then you turn right" 

There you go. beercheer.gif
post #101 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post

"AT boots don't have a bellows."

Hu?  TLT5 has a bellows.  Not much of one but it is a bellow.

"You can tippy toe fake it, but it isn't a telemark turn"

Loose heel, pegged toe.   No matter what the boot, drop the knee and you got a tele turn I thought.  What did I miss?  

I've tele'd (or thought I had) in low cut leather boots and three pins and in rock hard AT boots with no flex.

Dane, re-read my post. I said clearly there were exceptions to the bellows boot. I said one. There are two... Maybe three, but you get the point.,

. I've done tippy toe fake-a-marks Ina Fritschi. They never ever will be a telemark turn. What'd you miss? The whole show. smile.gif

I've teley'd in three pins and leather boots as well. Plastic came along and the world changed. At the time, AT gear sucked. Not any more. AT gear is lighter and arguably more reliable.

That's all.
post #102 of 130

"I've done tippy toe fake-a-marks In a Fritschi. They never ever will be a telemark turn. I've done tippy toe fake-a-marks In a Fritschi. They never ever will be a telemark turn."

Gotcha, my apologies:popcorn

I just got so confused.  Easytodoforme.

 

 

Bob?

"But it might be fair to say that the equipment has changed a lot, so technique changes, right?"

 

So equipment changes technique and technique changes the symatics?

"the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning."

 

And a tele turn is not a tele turn now unless you are on the most modern tele gear?

 

:bs:   :D

 

"Telemark skiing (also known as "free heel skiing") is a form of downhill skiing using bindings where the boot is attached only at the toe (similar to those of Cross-country skiing), allowing the heel to come up from the ski. Because the heel is free, it allows the skier to go into a lunge position in order to turn. The act of lunging while turning is a technique called the telemark turn:

 

I only know what I read and understand even less..

post #103 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post

And a tele turn is not a tele turn now unless you are on the most modern tele gear?

Now you're just trolling. I didn't write anything like that.

Quote:
"Telemark skiing (also known as "free heel skiing") is a form of downhill skiing using bindings where the boot is attached only at the toe (similar to those of Cross-country skiing), allowing the heel to come up from the ski. Because the heel is free, it allows the skier to go into a lunge position in order to turn. The act of lunging while turning is a technique called the telemark turn:

I only know what I read and understand even less..

I only know what I've learned from tele-ing for 25 years, 60+ days/yr for the last 7. But carry on with what you've read. I'm not even sure what your point is any more. That you can tele well on AT gear? Fine, perhaps you can post a picture like this one (of me) showing a decent tele turn on AT gear:
post #104 of 130

Bob I'm not taking it seriously.  Wasn't trying to troll or offend anyone.

 

My point was a tele turn is a tele turn no matter what gear you are on.

Not saying it is all that usefull or efficent on acient gear or the most modern AT gear just that it is still a tele turn.

 

Pictures?  Hell, I dont even ski :D.

If I did ski I would never intentionally (want to) do a tele turn in AT gear.   Or down anything as steep

as what YOU are skiing in that picture.  Or with a pack on for gawd's sake!

 

Is that a real ice axe?  Required as well for tele skiing?

Now that is trolling my friend! 


Edited by Dane - 9/15/13 at 6:14pm
post #105 of 130

Should I post a teley pict with an ice axe too? I dug up an old one for ye... :) 

 

So Dane, did you ever try your AT tippy toe teley in a couple feet of fresh snow? How did that work out for you? (see picture 2... that was about 3 feet.. Now that's trolling! )

 

post #106 of 130

At least I knew it was probably an ice axe :D

 

Tele turns on AT gear?  Like I said, not intentionally....ever.

If I did actually ever ski..that is.

post #107 of 130

You can't make a tele turn on AT gear.  You can get AT gear to turn with the heels released and you might want to call it a tele turn, it's not.  The pivot point of the binding is in the wrong place and the AT boots won't flex appropriately even if they have some sort of bellow.  You really can't get into the proper stance or pressure the back foot correctly.  It's exactly like Bob Lee said.  Now I'm saying it to.  Both of us have a lot of experience with telemark skiing and you, by your own admission, have almost none AND lack the desire to spend time with telemark.  That's fine, but why argue about something you basically know nothing about?  

 

Yes... Telemark gear has improved a lot in the last 75 years, so has alpine gear.  Both the telemark and parallel turns have evolved with the gear to become more efficient and neither turn is done the same way they were done in the distant past.  I started trying to telemark on my old cross country gear on golf courses in PA.  I can remember really wanting Epoke 900s.  I also had some leather boots that were Frankenstein stiff before plastic came out.  My first "real" tele binding featured surgical tubing that you stretched over your heel to "lock" you in.  They were first generation Raineys mounted on a pair of Olin Mark 3 Comps.  Those and a pair of Snake Skins got me started on Teton Pass.

 

 All of that old gear allowed you to get into a stance that was tele...  If you knew how to do it, if you didn't know how you could still do the fakeamark and a lot of people did.  I see people everyday on modern tele gear who lift their heel, but aren't making tele turns.  The AT boots and bindings wont allow you to get into a balanced tele stance.  You can make them turn, but it won't feel like a tele turn or look like a tele turn because it's not a tele turn.  

 

Unless you are my student, I don't really care how you turn your skis.  If you are my student, I'm being paid to share my knowledge with you and you, presumably, are there to learn from me.  The two guys at the end of my Misc Tele video that I posted are not making tele turns.  Personally I think they both suck at skiing.  They are doing their thing and having a good time in the Tower 3 chute.  It doesn't affect me or what I do.  I just think it's funny.

post #108 of 130

Mark, it is so sad to see anyone waste perfectly good powder like that.  Looks like you are really enjoying it though!  So job well done :)

 

I've never even met our local junkie and he's gone and made me feel bad.  And I am sure to regret this.

 

"and you, by your own admission, have almost none AND lack the desire to spend time with telemark."

 

Ya, guess I was trolling even if it honestly was unintentional.  I'll have to still  plead innocence though, Let me put that to rest for you and I'll then bail on the converstaion.  With all due  respect , fook that :words:  Just an opinion but may be you guys need to lighten up some?

 

"It's exactly like Bob Lee said. Now I'm saying it too"  Really?  Damn-it!  I hate ot be so wrong all the time.

 

And I am disagreeing....twice with both of you...two, too!

 

My picture below.  Telemark turns?...I've made at least 12 I can remember.  There might have  been more.  All likely fakeaturns on that gear by your standards.  Or you guys could both be TFOS :cool   Some of those turns are mine (on the far skier's left, as in "do not ski left of my tracks")  while ski guiding in the Bugaboos late '70s.  Obviously someone caught an edge in an area  seemingly safe from crevasses and bailed.   Bad form on his part either way.  . On Epoke 900s and Asolo boots here.   Wood, no edges, simple 3 pin, no heel locators and leather if you are unfamiliar.  Hero snow and a beginners slope though so anything will turn in those kind of conditions.   Gear I still have and ski on occasion btw.

 

 

Heli skiing in the  pic blelow on ancient AT gear in the early '80s, Selkirks iirc.  AT gear just in case one of us had to hike out.  If only I could have that life over on my current AT gear!   Sweet!   Still have that jacket too :)

 

 

Below?  Where i actually used a ice axe last...March '13.

That would be me in the picture again.

 

 

Skiing recently?  Spring '13.  A litttle tight in the gullies I like to ski for my tele gear/technique.   Maybe I need to learn how to use that up hill ski better.

Yes, fact is I do  "lack the desire to spend any more time with telemark" and the sub par gear in comparison to what is available now in AT.   FWIW  I like a Whippet better than a axe for most approaches these days when crampons are required.  Less phaff generally.

 

 

.

I'll bow to your need for a specialised  plastic boot, heel locator and edges on your skis for a telemark turn..

I in turn, think it is pretty funny.


Edited by Dane - 9/16/13 at 12:03am
post #109 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


. I've done tippy toe fake-a-marks Ina Fritschi.

Surprised they didn't snap.

post #110 of 130
Dane, no one's knocking your accomplishments and prowess. Hell, they're more than mine. I don't know if anyone really cares one way or the other what gear you used/use. Honestly, and IMHO only, I think AT's the way to go for ease, reliability, weight, etc... and for most people it will work much better. The only reason to teley these days is for the sensation. An XCD rig would be fun in the right terrain though.

(I seldom take an axe skiing either... Matter of fact, I haven't in years ... In the picture taken that particular day, it was only for a very specific job in a specific place)
post #111 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post

Surprised they didn't snap.

Only did a handful in a friend's gear... And carefully at that!smile.gif
post #112 of 130

Mark my point which i was obviously not making...is every setup will turn left and right.  Guy with the biggest smile wins :beercheer:.

 

I know what it takes to make me smile.

 

New snow on Rainier I bet :D  Time for laps on Observation Rock yet?


Edited by Dane - 9/16/13 at 1:00am
post #113 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post

I'll bow to your need for a specialised  plastic boot, heel locator and edges on your skis for a telemark turn..

Well, ^that shows who here is TFOS - no one claimed that, or even wrote it. You made it up. Which isn't so funny, Señor Troll.nonono2.gif
post #114 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


Well, ^that shows who here is TFOS - no one claimed that, or even wrote it. You made it up. Which isn't so funny, Señor Troll.nonono2.gif

 

 

My first teley turns were on XC gear. 75mm NN, but no edges, buckles, or plastic. But whatever... my first alpine turns where on edgeless wood skis with leather boots and cable bindings. Only the cable hooks mounted on the sidewalls kept the heel down. :) Same old same old.

post #115 of 130

   Regardless, Marko...you made that Jacket look good :beercheer:

 

   LL

 

 

 

    zenny

post #116 of 130

Is wikipedia wrong?


Edited by Dane - 9/16/13 at 11:07am
post #117 of 130

I'm kind of bored....To lunge is to poodle. ZZZZzzzzzzZzzzzz

 

 

Here's a vid of an old friend for fun. Best free heel skier I've ever seen or had the pleasure to ski with.  I'm out. 

post #118 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post

Is wikipedia wrong?

Oh, I don't know - I haven't read wikipedia - but I'm sure that three people in a dedicated skiing forum, including (I believe) a couple of instructors, that tele extensively are wrong. Whatever you've read in Wikipedia certainly trumps experience and first hand knowledge.

Now will you stop?

Cool joie de vivre in your vid there, markojp. Fun stuff.
post #119 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


Cool joie de vivre in your vid there, markojp. Fun stuff.

 

Had one of the most fun days ever when I skied with him the first time during our cert exam prep. The clinicians just let us ski and talk to each other as their association was making the transition from old school to more modern technique... he was already very well known through film, ski rags, etc...  He was one of the first guys to teach 'shuffles' pretty much anywhere. A couple other things he showed us still stick and continue to be very relevant to this day. Later that season,  we took and passed our cert exam together. Funny thing was a fall during the exam would be an automatic fail according to their rules. He very very damn near crashed... I'm glad they didn't have to go by their word. I'd have been embarrassed to pass if he hadn't. The dude's just an awesome skier, fun, a great instructor/guide, and consummate professional. 

post #120 of 130
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