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Learning to disassociate

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

saw this vid...


which reminded me of this vid...



are both beautiful illustrations of the spinal dynamics in movement. One of them has to learn how to unlock as many segments of the spine, the other doesn't, they both can maximize their efficiency and power while having almost no effect on their skull and the receptors that allow us to make the adjustments in our body to attain the goal with the least amount of interference or inhibition in our muscles.


Helping people to feel that level of whole body integration is what its all about, remarkable potential we can look for in ourselves and others.


(if anyone knows how to make those videos just appear without linking, feel free to correct or I can with a little instruction)

post #2 of 15
Originally Posted by chad View Post

(if anyone knows how to make those videos just appear without linking, feel free to correct or I can with a little instruction)

What works for me is to copy the link after clicking on Share on YouTube, then paste into the dialog box that comes up after clicking on the Video icon (looks like a film strip).

post #3 of 15

Here you go.




post #4 of 15

What I love about these two videos is the near stillness of the upper bodies while the legs do some much work underneath. In the cheetah it allows it to propel itself forward with no wasted vertical movement and in Ted it allows him to quickly and efficiently change edges and direction. I heard an account (I think it was Doug Lewis) that one of the reasons for Ted's success and absolute blowing up of the GS points last year was his ability to create very high edge angles so much earlier in the turn on the new skis and then change those edge angles through out the turn to effect the turn shape. Watch other video of Ted's runs and you'll see much less use of the stivot move at the top of the turn and more use of a release to change line downhill or and increase in edging to change his line uphill.

post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 

thanks LF, appreciate the assist.


no doubt nate.  since its a ski forum I'll focus on Ted, but the same can be seen in the cheetah.  you can see in the first vid how clearly the movement under the vertebra in his neck vs in the neck, thats is remarkable separation, watch it upside down, the head is left to its own world.  The spinal movement it is much more dynamic in the first video.  The variation from the first run to the second is cool too.  The force management of the GS necessitates more stability, more stability equates to fewer dynamic vertebra, his spine turns more like a log, the disassociation in the movement occurs lower in the spine. 


As far as efficiency in movement, watch the cheetah's rear toes, total relaxation once they release the ground, no visible effort until that rear foot is almost coming into contact, no wasted effort.  Where can we begin to dump the unnecessary effort in our skiing.


quite the balancing act to achieve in milli seconds

post #6 of 15

another video of Ted to watch.


post #7 of 15

    Love the way these GoPro vids show the quiet upper body and the active lower. The crossing of paths is so clearly evident! Check out this one:






post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 

these are such great videos and a really great perspective on ski movement.


I am amazed though you guys see a quiet upper body, the section from :54 to 1:14  in Nate's vid show the two opposing diagnal line movement patterns, the shortening between the opposing shoulder blade and pelvic bone is so integrated in his skiing, his trunk control is a visual representaiton of what we can look for in our movement, very rythmical and dynamic in the GS.


The last vid there zenny, it is interesting to see the differences in the way they both carry there heads, they both have great seperation from the lower segments of the spine (below the neck), but the second skier seems to have to use more effort in the neck to direct the eyes down course, is this because of more limited trunk dynamics under the neck? Regardless, look how much more the head/neck need to be ahead of the trunk, it is incredible to thinkit the time it takes for him to see the next gate 600+ muscles are going to be organized to get there as quickly as possible.


You mentioned the crossing of the paths, it is the abiltiy to use these alteranting muscle synergys without inhibition that makes it so efficent, same as the cheetah who switches from and extension to a flexion pattern so amazingly uninhibited.

post #9 of 15
quiet being a relative term of course, chad wink.gif consider a few things:

1) the cm takes a considerably shorter path than the bos...especially in the slalom.

2) the upper/lower separation we see here is by and large a product of femoral rotation, though some tension (and countering) is kept in the torso to resist upper rotational torque, and so the core does end up doing a fair amount of work--it just doesnt appear that way at first glance.

3) the legs extend laterally from side to side while the torso remains more "upright".

compared to lower level rec skiers who turn with their shoulders, you can see why some would say "quiet".

but it is because of this seeming stillness that the crossing of the paths is perfectly timed and looks effortless in these vids (even if its not! biggrin.gif )

i wrote this on my phone at work, hope it reads well smile.gif
post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 

I hear that zenny, certainly relative and context dependent.  I find it a curious thing, as we mature we actually have to revisit our trunk mobility and attention to its control, what is a subconscious and uninhibited trunk of a lower species we actually have to retrain to find freedom of movement.   Zen, the CM takes a shorter path in all our movement relative to our limbs, but its degree of freedom is critical. The focus on the femoral rotation and lateral movement of the legs is a perfect example of what I really wasn't trying to focus on.  The vids above show how wonderfully the pelvis can be agulated via sidebending. flexion/extension. and rotation of the spine, it is anything but quiet. while the femoral rotation is a critical aspect no doubt, but we can minimize the strain and improve the efficiency of the limb with an appreciation for the segmental mobility of the spine that orients the pelvic bone(the other side of the hip joint), watching the pelvis of the cat it is clear how the dynamic movement of the spine enhances the leg freedom and preserves muscle effort for when it is called upon and no sooner.  All in an effort to minimize how much wasted effort the head needs to counter with to negotiate our environment.

post #11 of 15
chad, i certainly appreciate the focus if your thread here, and i cant wait to learn more. just have patience because most of
us are used to discussing things from a technique viewpoint. smile.gif

now jasp said something interesting once regarding pov and i think it would be cool to think about here. the gopro on ligetys head/shoulders is like what an ant in the same spot would see looking down. what would the view be like if the ant were down low (on the bindings, perhaps?), looking up towards the head? now THAT woulf be an interesting view!

post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 

I get that.  Just stuff rattling through my head.  maybe typing it helps to organize it somehow, so no worries, I appreciate the repsonses.


Pretty damn fine skiing, no matter where the ant stands :)

post #13 of 15

Here you go... this is about as good as it gets:


post #14 of 15

When the camera is attached firmly to the helmet, the helmet and the head in it constitute part of the frame of reference along with the camera's lens.  They will appear motionless.


It would be nice if the GoPro software offered a way to pick another frame of reference, say the center of the torso, and have the software crunch the information and render a video where the center of the torso doesn't move but everything else does.  That's probably part of what's going on in Ted's head - where do I want my COM to be next, and after that, and what do I do to get it there?

post #15 of 15
Thread Starter 

It is great they share this stuff, it would be cool to hear their interpretations of the movements.  


LF- primitive movement.


thats the connection, he doesn't have to think, he can rely on the movement patterns that are lower in the brain,the cat doesn't have this problem for obvious reasons. There is no time for those choices to relay all the way to upper cortex.  It is precisely why this is where we can look for inhibition.  It is easy to see in people with pain, or in skiing with anxiety about falling. The skeletal disassociation, be it femur to pelvis, or any of the 186 joints of the spine depend upon the regulation and symmetry of our primitive movements, others call them phylogenetic patterns, the terminology, like anything can be obtrusive. Simplified, how well can adjust what needs stability vs what needs mobility moment to moment. How do we learn to sense this juggling act in ourselves?

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