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Pumping In Skiing

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

I wish you guys had an "Intermediate Zone". I feel a little out of my depth posting in this forum, but I don't think it's a beginner topic either. Anyway, please understand that the subject is coming from an intermediate/advanced skier trying to improve.

 

There was a great video posted in another thread, that really caught my interest; about a guy who built a pump course for his mountain bike in his backyard. The poster claimed this was a great way to improve your skiing over the summer. I like this concept because I know how to pump from years in the skate park. It's a skill I am very comfortable with and know how to do well, but, I have never considered it a part of skiing.

 

Is pumping a skill that is specifically taught, I've not seen it referenced before?

 

So, should I be "pumping" when I ski to keep momentum like I do in the skate park?

 

Does this relate to Bob's "Trampoline Man", or is that more about rebound?

 

How does it reconcile with Retraction style edge changes where there is no push off?

 

Sorry if I have mixed up my terminology, but I hope you get the idea. This was the first time I have seen pumping referred to in skiing and it peaked my interest. I'm sure it would be most effective in the bumps but could be done on the flats too. 

 

MGA.

post #2 of 25

Now this is going to be an interesting thread.

 

--Pumping involves generating forward travel with rhythmic movements of the bike.  That happens in skiing as well; perhaps the most obvious similarity.

 

--The inclines and declines within the pump track present the bike with different amounts of force pressing up from the ground against its tires.  The rider must manage these pressure changes to keep going.  Similar pressure changes happen in skiing as the skier makes turns.  Parts of each turn present stronger forces pressing up/in against the ski bases (virtual bump in each turn; shoulders of real bumps), while during other parts of the turns there is a release of pressure.  Managing these pressure changes in order to maintain a line of travel and an intended speed is a major part of skiing.  

 

--Pumping involves the rider moving the COM forward/aft and up/down on the bike in a way that manages those pressures so the bike continues to travel forward.  That happens in skiing too, and in an especially pronounced way when skiing on real bumps. "Backpedalling" with skis resembles what the pump track rider does in many ways.  Skiers tend to flex and extend to level out the pressures, but equalizing the pressures is not always their intent.

 

--And then there's skating, which can be done downhill.  And literally pumping oneself forward on skis while moving downhill.  Both generate extra speed beyond what gravity provides.  Whether manual pumping can add much once the speed gets up there is an issue of contention.  Much has been said in previous threads about accelerating out of a turn.  This thread could get into that discussion since pumping generates speed.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 8/27/13 at 3:46pm
post #3 of 25

Wish I could remember the link for the video of a skier perpetually pumping a bump track in a circle. You'll see pumping more often/more clearly done in the half pipe and in skier cross. For jumps the same movement can provide "pop" on takeoff. In steeps, a similar movement can be used for hop turns. In the moguls, similar movement is called absorption but this is speed control vs speed generation. I think of retraction turns as sort of the opposite of pumping. Pressure management is the skill that is taught. Extension and retraction are the movements to achieve that skill. Pumping is a tactic that uses that skill. There's not a big demand for teaching this.

post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

Wish I could remember the link for the video of a skier perpetually pumping a bump track in a circle. You'll see pumping more often/more clearly done in the half pipe and in skier cross. For jumps the same movement can provide "pop" on takeoff. In steeps, a similar movement can be used for hop turns. In the moguls, similar movement is called absorption but this is speed control vs speed generation. I think of retraction turns as sort of the opposite of pumping. Pressure management is the skill that is taught. Extension and retraction are the movements to achieve that skill. Pumping is a tactic that uses that skill. There's not a big demand for teaching this.

 

Was it this one?

 

http://www.grindtv.com/action-sports/snow/post/freeskiers-produce-impressive-pump-track-video/

post #5 of 25

Thanks for finding that. Nope - that was not it. Some may watch that and argue that you don't see the skiers going in a circle and therefore prove that the pumping motion provides propulsion. Whatever. You can at least see the motion.

 

I'm glad that clip had subtitles. That guy? was really (cough) "pumped".

post #6 of 25

Right.  It's not the circle one.  Can't find it.

post #7 of 25
on a bike, you also pump a turn, by straightening the legs and arms in the middle of the corner, thus pushing three bike into the ground. And you crouch down in transition between turns.
This provides a lot of extra speed.

Similarly in skiing, you straighten the downhill leg in the corner, increasing the pressure, and releasing, or bending the downhill leg in transition.
post #8 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

Wish I could remember the link for the video of a skier perpetually pumping a bump track in a circle....

Mosley, but to my knowledge it's off the net, unless someone has a copy on a harddrive.  No different from a bike pump track except on-snow.  You get your resort to leave rhythm sections at the side of flats back to lifts, you get basically the same thing as in the video that's linked upthread, without some of the cool touches.  Timing people through the section can measure the pump.

post #9 of 25

Right, Moseley.  Here it is (maybe), but the video is "private."

 

http://celebrityheightandweight.com/watch/x2wd5JFJm4g/first-ever-snow-pump-track/

post #10 of 25
post #11 of 25

post #12 of 25

There you go.  Video no longer private.

post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

There you go.  Video no longer private.

 

 

The real thread this video refers to was;

 

A Simple Self-Assessment Test

 

This thread was a failed attempt to not derail it. CT might be right, it does show there was still some unfinished business........

post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

 

 

The real thread this video refers to was;

 

A Simple Self-Assessment Test

 

This thread was a failed attempt to not derail it. CT might be right, it does show there was still some unfinished business........


 I wouldn't articulate it in terms of one poster being "right," but I do think that it's important to recognize that absorption has been a long-standing term and skill-set in skiing.  Likewise, Chuck Martin, for instance, and his peers clearly talk about a meaningful part of speed control coming from absorption.  Those straight facts unfortunately found a lot of attempts at "denialism" in that other thread.  I actually did think about that other thread the other day while skating a fullpipe, fwiw, and found it very amusing that what I was doing had been judged "Not Possible" in that other thread.

 

For skiing, in practical terms pumping and absorption are not quite as early on the critical path of skier or rider development as where they are located for, say, bmx racing, or even surfing.   What is on that critical path:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

... I think of retraction turns as sort of the opposite of pumping. Pressure management is the skill that is taught. Extension and retraction are the movements to achieve that skill....

post #15 of 25

Someone had reviewed that "other thread" and this one, and asked for an explanation of pumping.  This

 

is a decent explanation of pumping on a curved surface similar to rollers or moguls in skiing.  Reverse the movement sequence, and it's a good (non-technical) explanation of absorption.  Pumping on a flat surface is similar, but there the arc supplied by the ski's profile and engaged sidecut substitutes, more or less (and less efficiently) for the curved 3d shape of a mogul or roller or, as in the video, skatepark feature.   (And as noted this is sort of a subsidiary technique that is not as key to regular skiing and riding.)

post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
 


 I wouldn't articulate it in terms of one poster being "right," but I do think that it's important to recognize that absorption has been a long-standing term and skill-set in skiing.  Likewise, Chuck Martin, for instance, and his peers clearly talk about a meaningful part of speed control coming from absorption.  Those straight facts unfortunately found a lot of attempts at "denialism" in that other thread.  I actually did think about that other thread the other day while skating a fullpipe, fwiw, and found it very amusing that what I was doing had been judged "Not Possible" in that other thread.

 

For skiing, in practical terms pumping and absorption are not quite as early on the critical path of skier or rider development as where they are located for, say, bmx racing, or even surfing.   What is on that critical path:

 

 

Very true where I see pumping as a basic skill in BMX and intermediate skill in MTBing, it is an advance to high expert skill in skiing. It has place but absorption is far more important. Retraction is very much part of pumping, just as much as extension.

 

It is entirely possible on small radius hardpack skis to pump up to speed on very slight DHs and even flats. In this case you are pumping the 'virtual bump"  Let be real though being about to pump a 11 meter ski while possible, fun and entertaining is pretty much a parlor trick, although it does show that the virtual bump is actually pretty real.

post #17 of 25

As pointed out here in postings above, skiing is more about flexing and extending for better traction than "pumping for speed". However, just like in pumping you need to be able to apply pressure at the right moment. Its a timing issue. Makes skiing look very easy and fluent when you know how to do it.

post #18 of 25
Doug Lewis was talking about some of the racers pumping on SL courses yesterday. Like it was a new movement.
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Doug Lewis was talking about some of the racers pumping on SL courses yesterday. Like it was a new movement.

Slider, I suspect he was talking about the form of pumping they call skumping.  A new term just coined this month to label what Kristoffersen is doing with his arm thrusting move.  It's put new focus on pumping.  

post #20 of 25
Yes that was it. Thanks for the correct information Rick.
post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Doug Lewis was talking about some of the racers pumping on SL courses yesterday. Like it was a new movement.

 

 He is just about the worst commentator for SL skiing there could ever be. SL is not about attacking it is about being precise and smooth.

post #22 of 25
I like Mr. Lewis commentator. As far as SL courses that's not what the WC coaches/racers I trained with said.
post #23 of 25

Slalom is a full on, in your face, take no prisoners, balls to the walls charge down the course.  Too round and you'll look pretty, but you'll be slow.  Launch yourself into a straight exit line and you'll be fast.  Let the exit energy just bleed away such that the end of your turns are flat/dead/stall and you'll be slow.  Racers can't just stand there like a spectator waiting for the gates to come to them, they have to actively go to the gates, generating as much explosive energy as they can.  That's what pumping is, and that's what Henrik has found his own special way to do on the flatter sections of the course.  

post #24 of 25

Skumping is an interesting one, because while it's been around as a term for a couple decades at least in skateboarding, along with the broader term of skogging, even there it's stayed pretty much a niche discipline.  And, the longboard designs most favorable to it have fallen out of favor because they are less-good at other things.  Skiing-wise, even for the Scandinavian tech event specialists, their timing is normally more an anti-pump than a pump, but they have been fairly loose with their upper bodies and less on the shovels of their skis than others for some time.  Pumping for speed has obviously been around in skiing for several decades as well, but the ski design elements (loaded with camber, abrupt transition zones, etc.) that would allow pumping for slightly more of a course would likewise make the skis rather exciting to be on elsewhere.  So racing-wise it's destined to stay confined to certain situations.  Though for courses with wet snow in particular there's also pumping the ruts as they develop..

post #25 of 25

Not related to alpine sports but a cool analysis of how projecting mass at the right time can increase speed (or distance). It's cool if you like this stuff or into the history of the ancient games. 

 

 

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