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"All-Temp" wax... just using cold temp wax good enough?

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

Since I don't race... but I like being about to go fast anyway....

 

last year I used Racewax's FluoroMax All-Temp wax.

 

THis year, since I can get Swix & Toko through work...

 

Since the Racewax FluoroMax is supposedly a High Fluoro Wax...

 

In the Swix camp, would CH4 or HF4 be suitable for all temps?

 

And on the Toko side, the HF series.

 

It's mostly machine made snow/ice I ride on.  Also intend to use some Moly additives also.

post #2 of 29

If you're going to use one non-universal wax CH7 would be best.

post #3 of 29

     Hmmm.... is it usually really cold where you ski? Since you aren't racing, I wouldn't mess with flouros. A Swix ch6-8 would be good place to start. Also, the speed of a ski is also heavily dependent on how much you brush it and with what types of brushes. That's assuming you've got an appropriate structure for the conditions--super cold and dry snow needs a finer structure...warmer and wetter has a coarser structure. 

 

    Exclusively using harder hydrocarbons (like a ch4) can lead to a dry base as it doesn't "absorb" as deeply and can draw out softer waxes already in the base.

 

     zenny

post #4 of 29

Plus a hard wax is a lot harder to scrape.

post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 

Sorry, meant the Swix HF series.,

 

Outdoor air temperature is one of the aspects to look at.  While it doesn't really get too cold where I am... another aspect to consider is the type of snow.  Artificial snow does have a tendency to be more abrasive than those blessed with natural snow, hence going with a colder, harder wax.

 

I do like the fluorinated wax also, after years of using regular hydrocarbon wax.

post #6 of 29

Toko HF Dibloc blue is good as an additive to waxes in the ~CH7 temp range, for high water super aggressive manmade snow.*   Good to have in the box, and it is far easier to scrape than CH4 or LF4 or HF4. 

 I have not used with Racewax's line.   I have used it with: Maplus/Briko RBM, Swix CH6, Swix F4, Hertel Hot Sauce, Wintersteiger Slik**, Toko Moly all-temp.   I have used it for base impregnation prior to CH4 application. 

 

 

*both as a hardener and a lubricant

**these two didn't play very well together

post #7 of 29

     For the man-made, harder works great--just make sure you fill up on some softer waxes on a fairly regular basis.

 

    zenny

post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

     For the man-made, harder works great--just make sure you fill up on some softer waxes on a fairly regular basis.

 

    zenny


Before I invested in the equipment to do my own waxing....  I used to neglect the waxing portion.

 

Ever since (last season), I bought an iron (Swix T75 FX), a vice set, etc... Now I wax every day...  since it's not like waxing is rocket science....

 

though I was kinda disappointed with my iron on my snowboard.... since it doesn't go on as easy as say... in the video below

http://youtu.be/Xxa_GHMHQrY

 

Works great for skis though.

 

I decided to go with Racewax again, especially considering with their new website, they have a 30% off sale....  I keep their warm temp hydrocarbon wax stocked up for that purpose (and hot-scrape cleaning)....

post #9 of 29

Holmenkol Beta-Mix (red)

 

This is an excellent all purpose wax that is a colder temp wax, good for 7 degree F snow temp but works well at 30 degree F air temp. It's not too hard to scrape either. I use it exclusively on my teaching skis. I'm located in SE Michigan and all we get is machine made snow. Beta-Mix is a hydrocarbon wax with no flouro. Priced right at $22.00 for 150 grams.
 

Karl

post #10 of 29
In Aspen,I use Swix universal warm 90% of the time and I'm king of the flats!
post #11 of 29
I buy Racewax hydrocarbon in large bricks, mostly use green. Preseason prep involves the hellish CH4 after a lot of hot scraping with Tognar red. Our snow doesn't have a lot of moisture until spring, so I don't often resort to fluoro.
post #12 of 29
Swix universal and universal cold, I bought a box of each eek.gif and it's what I use most of the time. Fluoro probably helps in spring but since I wax at home I don't want to deal with the potential health hazard.
post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by orionxprss View Post

Holmenkol Beta-Mix (red)

 

This is an excellent all purpose wax that is a colder temp wax, good for 7 degree F snow temp but works well at 30 degree F air temp. It's not too hard to scrape either. I use it exclusively on my teaching skis. I'm located in SE Michigan and all we get is machine made snow. Beta-Mix is a hydrocarbon wax with no flouro. Priced right at $22.00 for 150 grams.
 

Karl

+1 for Holmenkol Beta Mix

post #14 of 29
Quote:
just using cold temp wax good enough?

Good enough...for what?

If you've actually gone to the expense (> $500/lb.) and health risk of using high-fluoro waxes on a regular basis, and appreciated the difference, then you should probably be answering your question, not asking it. As the saying goes, if you have to ask...you probably don't need condition-specific, HF wax.

There are some excellent all-purpose waxes on the market these days. I have had good success with Swix F4 (which they used to make as a hard iron-in wax, but I'm not sure they still do--mostly rub-on/wipe-on/spray-on types now), and more recently, with Briko-Maplus "Solid Racing Base-Medium Universal" wax (available at Slidewright.com, here), as well as Purl Purple all-temperature wax. These waxes work quite well indeed over a variety of temperatures, all except extreme cold. Yes, you will potentially save a few hundredths of a second with the right condition-specific and fluorinated (when conditions call for it) wax--but again, if that's important to you, you probably wouldn't be asking your question.

At least as important--and often much more--is the finish and structure on your base. But for most purposes, any medium-fine structure will work great. Keep your edges tuned, smooth, and sharp, and apply whatever wax you choose regularly, and your skis will work fine, in all but the most extreme conditions and demanding circumstances.

Finally, to answer your specific question, while most wax is better than nothing, I would NOT recommend an extreme cold temperature wax--as in CH4/LF4/HF4--for all-purpose. It is extremely hard to melt evenly and deeply into your bases, and harder still to scrape smooth--unless you have a very sharp scraper. When I use that stuff--which is rare--I sprinkle very thin shavings of it (made with a sharp metal scraper) on top of a universal base wax and melt it quickly with a hot iron. I would not think of using it as a base or universal wax.

Best regards,
Bob
post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by orionxprss View Post

Holmenkol Beta-Mix (red)

 

This is an excellent all purpose wax that is a colder temp wax, good for 7 degree F snow temp but works well at 30 degree F air temp. It's not too hard to scrape either. I use it exclusively on my teaching skis. I'm located in SE Michigan and all we get is machine made snow. Beta-Mix is a hydrocarbon wax with no flouro. Priced right at $22.00 for 150 grams.
 

Karl

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scavenger View Post

+1 for Holmenkol Beta Mix

 

 

 

If you want one wax that comes close to being universal, THIS!  Also buy a block of blue(ultra) and yellow (alpha) and mix as appropriate and you are set.    If you want to spend a bit more, get the Holmenkol fluoro mix (white) which can give you that little extra. These form the core of my waxing and I am prepping a lot of race skis during the season.  For training/free skiing, it is normally beta/ultra with the fluoro mix going on as a base on race day.  High fluoro, almost never, unless it is a speed event with the right snow conditions or there is a championship on the line.

 

Like Zenny says, you will get more bang for your buck and better performance with proper brushing!


Edited by ScotsSkier - 8/27/13 at 5:24pm
post #16 of 29
A rotobrush goes a long way to making all that brushing way easier.
Edited by sibhusky - 8/28/13 at 11:04am
post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

Like Zenny says, you will get more bang for your buck and better performance with proper brushing!

 

   That's right ScotsSkier...and if you really want them faster and are really into it you can put in some time and effort in the pre-season before you're skis touch snow by refining the surfaces of the factory (or shop) imparted structure. This involves cycles of light steel scraping, wet sanding with 2 or 3 different grits of paper, stiff steel brushing, 3m pads (red, green, and white), with plenty of cleaning in between each using fiberlene to get the big particles and hot scraping to get the fine ones. I can go into more detail if anyone wants further info...the idea is to completely smooth the peaks, sides, and valleys of your skis' structure (as they are usually very rough when first ground--rough = bad, smooth = good)

 

   I've seen 2 identical pairs of race skis, one prepped as above, the oher one not. The one which was prepped (smoothed) had swix ch8, the "rough" based ski had the "wax of the day" and was ready for some fast training runs. The smooth based ski ended up running a LOT faster.

 

    zenny


Edited by zentune - 8/27/13 at 6:23pm
post #18 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

A rotobrush gors a long way to making all that brushing way easier.

 

I'll buy that next year.  Too bad, from what I found, I can only get a nylon rotobrush for a snowboard.

post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post  Too bad, from what I found, I can only get a nylon rotobrush for a snowboard.

 

 

Err...why is this a problem again?   

 

 

 

1 x   300mm axle + 3 x 100mm "ski" brushes of any type -> Bob's yer uncle.

post #20 of 29
Just make multiple passes. My brush is shorter than the maximum width of my powder skis, so what? No need to spend triple the money on extra brushes.
post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Just make multiple passes. My brush is shorter than the maximum width of my powder skis, so what? No need to spend triple the money on extra brushes.

 

 

That's true, and  that way you don't have to worry about chuck slippage, drill hogging, or digging from unlevel pressure so much.

post #22 of 29

Cold temp should be harder wax.  I use a base layer and a top high fluoro wax spray

post #23 of 29
@Pat Mcb, I noticed that every time you post, it's reopening an old thread. Might want to check that date. I was relieved to see this one wasn't an ad for dynowax.
post #24 of 29
For a cheap wax that works try the pink TOKO LF universal wax for only $13 in the 250g bricks at ARTECHSKI. It is much better than the white universal wax that TOKO sells.

Cold wax is not the only wax that is harder to scrape. I've been using a universal LF Hertal wax for a few years that is hard as heck. Conventional wisdom says a universal wax should be soft, but the Racing FC739 is hard and lasts a really long time. It is also a PITA to scrape. Regardless of what you use, try rubbing a moly wax on your skis before ironing in a universal wax on the bitter cold days...it seems to help a lot. Zenny knows all about the electro static stuff...I just knows this works on cold days.
Edited by quant2325 - 8/26/15 at 1:42pm
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 

Since I don't race... but I like being about to go fast anyway....

 

last year I used Racewax's FluoroMax All-Temp wax.

 

THis year, since I can get Swix & Toko through work...

 

Since the Racewax FluoroMax is supposedly a High Fluoro Wax...

 

In the Swix camp, would CH4 or HF4 be suitable for all temps?

 

And on the Toko side, the HF series.

 

It's mostly machine made snow/ice I ride on.  Also intend to use some Moly additives also.


You don't need high fluoro wax based on what you are saying.  HF waxes are only going to help on very wet snow.  You say mostly man made.  For that yyou want solid lubes like graphite and or molly as you say.  If you can get deals on Swix or Toko I would recommend you use Toko NF-Hydrocarbon waxes.  Saturate with yellow first, then use the red or blue and mix with those with the black every time.  You will need to redo the yellow from time to time or you may burn the bases anyway.  By nature the soft waxes have a smaller molecule size and therefore penetrate deeply as can be.  The harder waxes need that softer wax to bind to.  Hard waxes will not penetrate the base.  Of course all this depends on if your base is sintered and the quality of the sinter.  If you have a extruded base whatever you do will not last long anyway.  Focus on the base structure for the conditions.  As stated above cold dry = smother base structure and wet = coarse structure.  Any structure needs work to improve it.  A fresh deep grind is going to be slow until you work the crap out of it.  An already smoother structure will require less work.  Good luck and don't fall into the trap of thinking Hf waxes are always faster because they are not.  In dryer snow air conditions they can slow the ski a lot. 

post #26 of 29

My favorite all purpose rub in wax not mentioned so far  " Zuper "   I think I got it from Racewerks

post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachedub View Post
 

My favorite all purpose rub in wax not mentioned so far  " Zuper "   I think I got it from Racewerks


I know this is just semantics, but it would be a "run on" not a "rub in". 

post #28 of 29

Well in that case wouldn't it be "ride on".

post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachedub View Post
 

Well in that case wouldn't it be "ride on".


Yes "Right On!"   Be good!

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › "All-Temp" wax... just using cold temp wax good enough?