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New PSIA-I Skills Videos

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

Here's a link to PSIA-I Skills Videos on Vimeo:

 

http://vimeo.com/channels/326852

 

What do you all think?

post #2 of 26

My, my, those are pretty Level I turns.  

post #3 of 26

Thanks for posting Loki. I have trivial quibbles with some of the content (e.g. realigning vs continuous movement) and some of the demos (e.g. White Pass turns lean too much). The production quality is excellent. Most importantly, all of the divisions need to be producing content like this. Kudos to PSIA-Intermountain.

post #4 of 26
Nice production as Rusty says. The short turns at the beginning though aren't up to standard.
post #5 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

My, my, those are pretty Level I turns.  

 

Whoops.  I thought those were Level I cert skills, which if true made it seem like they overreached.  I read it wrong.  

post #6 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Whoops.  I thought those were Level I cert skills, which if true made it seem like they overreached.  I read it wrong.  

I don't agree LF... The demonstration needs to be at as high a level as possible demonstrating the skills for the level one standard, not a DCL or demo team member having a bad run on mushy snow. smile.gif . It creates both a mental image and a clear comparison for video analysis for a L1 candidate, or anyone else for that matter.
post #7 of 26

Interesting, only managed to see the rotational video. I see a few major issues in the skiing itself,

I think the point they are making is good, and it all makes sense, pity the demo's aren't as good as they could be...

post #8 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


I don't agree LF... The demonstration needs to be at as high a level as possible demonstrating the skills for the level one standard, not a DCL or demo team member having a bad run on mushy snow. smile.gif . It creates both a mental image and a clear comparison for video analysis for a L1 candidate, or anyone else for that matter.

 

I thought the videos were study guides for Level I Candidates who were preparing for the test and seeing what they tasks they'd need to be doing.  I made my first comment because I thought it was odd they were showing White Pass turns and so on, things that are not on the test.  

 

I didn't expect the demos to be weak imitations of good skiing, just to the point.  I agree with you.  I read fast and saw PSIA - I as PSIA Level I.  That's all.

 

Back to the real discussion....

post #9 of 26

Those videos are not presenting certification tasks.  They are presenting the skills concept...

post #10 of 26
Thread Starter 

Born is correct.  The original idea behind the videos was to show how the skills can look(visually change or not) through a variety of turns, terrain and skiers.  It is meant more as a basis for discussion and MA development than a demonstration or certification video.  This may change the way you look at the videos.

I do agree that the precision of skiing should be higher and more consistent.  It does show quite a range of the applications of skills however, I think this going to lead to more confusion for those watching and going through the certification process. 

post #11 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

Born is correct.  The original idea behind the videos was to show how the skills can look(visually change or not) through a variety of turns, terrain and skiers.  It is meant more as a basis for discussion and MA development than a demonstration or certification video.  This may change the way you look at the videos.

I do agree that the precision of skiing should be higher and more consistent.  It does show quite a range of the applications of skills however, I think this going to lead to more confusion for those watching and going through the certification process. 

I think it's that's the issue 'how the skills can look'. I find this hard to watch, and believe that this is the pinnacle of skiing in the PSIA Intermountain, it's surely gonna be tough for the training staff to get their students/instructors/trainee's to buy into a video of a pro who's trying to demonstrate good fore and aft balance, but who's hip remains open and ankle stays locked. Surely the students, especially those with a good skiing back round would pick up on this!!

post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo87 View Post

I think it's that's the issue 'how the skills can look'. I find this hard to watch, and believe that this is the pinnacle of skiing in the PSIA Intermountain, it's surely gonna be tough for the training staff to get their students/instructors/trainee's to buy into a video of a pro who's trying to demonstrate good fore and aft balance, but who's hip remains open and ankle stays locked. Surely the students, especially those with a good skiing back round would pick up on this!!

 

Ok, hold on.  Let me say some things before this gets out of hand.  

 

First of all, I can tell you for sure that there are numerous skiers in PSIA-I that can out-ski that video in question.  Some have been members of the national demo team.  Some have coached the national demo team.  Some write articles for ski magazine on a regular basis.   Some have just been too busy teaching rich students at Deer valley to be bothered with making demonstration videos or be on the tech team, etc.  

 

Secondly, its not clear to me that the guys in the video are even on the division tech team.  The color of their jackets does mean DCL (or perhaps DCL in training).  As far as I'm concerned they are just some ambitious trainers within the division that made some video and tried to make it constructive by creating something educational notes about the skills concept.  

 

The tech team is not neccessarily the best skiers in the division!  In fact most of the best skiers have gone through tech teams, demo teams and everything else like that years ago, have personally moved way past that and you really won't see them often being video taped anymore, even though they continue to give clinics and represent examples of very fine skiing within the division.

 

Now all that being said, I agree this is not the best skiing and frankly I think DCL's should be able to represent the standard better then that.  I hope these particular skiers hear all this feedback and go work on it.  Some of them I know for a fact used to be better.  

 

But that being said, the video was not represented as the standard, it was represented as learning materials about the skills concept.  I agree, that this skiing may not "sell" the skills concept.  But the imagery nonetheless does teach it and is still valuable in that way for those that want to understand what the skills concept is.

 

As to whether the division should have allowed educational videos like this to surface at all, is definitely questionable since people like Rollo and others are holding the entire division accountable for the the level of skiing being demonstrated.  I think they would have been better served to ditch the yellow jackets and do the same videos to illustrate the skills concept, without representing themselves as trainers for the division.   Nonetheless the information is still decent and to some extent if you expect every single educational video to be a perfect demonstration of the ideal form, then we will get less of this kind of thing, and frankly we need more.  

post #13 of 26
Thread Starter 

A couple points:

A)This was a group of full DCEL's, all with at least 6 years as a DECL most with many more, put together by the Cert and Education managers for the purpose of doing the videos for the division. B)There is not an Intermountain Tech Team.

C) There are plenty of great skiers in the division and this is not a great representation of that skiing.

D) I am one of the skiers in the video.

 

     My purpose of posting the videos was to get feedback from those that weren't involved in the making of them. I wish this thread could have generated a bit more discussion but thanks to those who have responded.

post #14 of 26

Nothing wrong with the production quality, and kudos for going all out. Maybe film mid winter in better snow... again, the first batch of short turns are not to standard, especially for a multi-year DCL, but what you're trying to show is a very worthy project... Speaking for myself, I'm looking forward to seeing how it all progresses! smile.gif

post #15 of 26

I'll say some more now that I've taken a close look at these.  

 

The composition of the six videos is strong.  The videos feature written verbal descriptions identifying the movement patterns PSIA looks for within each of the six skill sets.   Those descriptions are paired with skiing at the wedge level on up to dynamic turns.  There is slo-mo of some of the turns as well.  The verbals are repeated in each video to enhance clarity and drive home the point.  As a teaching aid, the videos do a great job of identifying what's supposed to be learned by saying and showing what it is, then showing what it is in different situations, and finally by saying what it is again.  Nice job.

 

The six-pack breakdown is good;  I'm more used to BERP (balance, edging, rotary, pressure), a group of only four.  The foursome leaves out "Directional Movements" and combines "fore-aft" with "lateral" under "Balance."  Your group of six had Flex-Extend as one of its six.  This is all good; I don't know if this breakdown belongs to PSIA-I or if the video makers chose to do it this way.  It's good either way.

 

The demos I'll leave to others to comment on.  I'd like to hear if others think the demos match the verbals.  

 

Now, about dividing the pie of skiing into four or five or six movement patterns in this way... that's another issue and I think a worthy one for discussion.  Each of these movement patterns is meant to be something a skier uses throughout their turns to varying degrees.  ALL their turns.  Well, ok, that's fine.  This is one way to cut up the skiing pie; universals that we use in all turns and throughout each turn.  But that kind of breakdown misses addressing some very important technical things about skiing... like initiations.

 

I'd like to see PSIA direct this level of production and thought to the topic of initiations.  Where's PSIA-I's video on how to start a turn?  ...in the beginner corral??   ...in deep snow on a narrow chute?  ...on hard snow on a black groomer??  ...on blue week-old bumps in New England?  ...on the first narrow blue a new skier encounters?

 

How about PSIA devoting close attention to how it wants to teach bump skiing?  Videos of this type for beginner bumps, intermediate bumps, and advanced bumps.  It's time PSIA did this.  BERP and DIRT don't give a clue about specific usage for different initiations and how to ski bumps.  The best BERP and DIRT can do is say "appropriate usage" for terrain and conditions.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 8/26/13 at 8:54am
post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 

Thanks MarkOJP, I agree about the snow.  It wasn't the greatest but, also should not impact the performance as much as I believe it did. Also in fairness there is more footage than that which was chosen for the video.  If you look at Chris Morgan's(producer) video's page 5 and 6 you can see the rough cuts of the videos.  It gives a better look at the tasks that were skied.

post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

I'd like to see PSIA direct this level of production and thought to the topic of initiations.  Where's PSIA-I's video on how to start a turn?  ...in the beginner corral??   ...in deep snow on a narrow chute?  ...on hard snow on a black groomer??  ...on blue week-old bumps in New England?  ...on the first narrow blue a new skier encounters?

 

That's a bit more like the main office's 'Go with a Pro' video tips... though I agree, there's a LOT of room for showing some great mini-progressions, etc... for example, show a challenging group (slightly different skill levels and the like) lesson and focus on group management. This would do new and L1 instructors a world of good. What would also be cool is to do a show... randomly pick a skier on the hill, and give him/her a 20 min lesson (then edit it down for time) addressing something that would clearly improve their skiing.   The benefits would be great for other instructors, the student, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, if linked to a ski area website, a great example for the public to see what can really happen in a lesson. Hmmmm.. I think I'm going to pass this one along to our SSD. smile.gif

post #18 of 26

As I posted before, the idea is great. The format is good, and the production values are awesome. Not looked at the stuff on the cutting room floor, but will have a look at that too. Where will these videos be used? 

post #19 of 26

For sake of clarity, the 4 PSIA skills are: balance, rotation, edging and pressure control.  

 
They have divided balance into two specific types of balance in these videos, fore/aft and lateral.  
 
Flexion and Extension is the "pressure control skill.
 
The one called directional movement is really not one of the PSIA skills, its a new 5th skill. 
 

This is kind of a question about what the skills concept is.  

 

 

To me the skills concept is a bit like saying that in order to be a great chef, the food needs to be good temperature, flavorful, presented well and sanitary.  That doesn't teach any specifics about how to do any of those things, it just creates 4 broad areas of focus in order to judge whether someone has achieved the goal of good cooking.  Its useful to have recognition of those 4 broad goals or focus areas, but still the nitty gritty is needed, i.e..... the method.

 

I have felt for a long time that concepts like BERP and DIRT are borderline useless.  They are fun to use at a very high level to convey the idea of blending different skills but they really don't teach anyone the specific combinational movements they need.  They only elude to them.  This concept leaves it up to individuals to figure out on their own how to blend those 4 very broad skills into specific movement patterns needed for various tasks, such as releasing and initiating turns, as LF suggested.  There are numerous movement patterns needed to cook ski turns.  

 

Personally I don't like the "skills" concept that much because I think its too high level and doesn't get into the nitty gritty enough.  Most instructors do get into nitty gritty sooner or later with themselves and with their students.  They have to.  So the nitty gritty is where we need more definition and demonstration from PSIA.  I agree!  

 

But the question to put forth, is this 5th skill demonstrated by PSIA-I truly a high level focus area in a similar way as the other 4 PSIA skills?  

post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

For sake of clarity, the 4 PSIA skills are: balance, rotation, edging and pressure control.  

 
They have divided balance into two specific types of balance in these videos, fore/aft and lateral.  
 
Flexion and Extension is the "pressure control skill.
 
The one called directional movement is really not one of the PSIA skills, its a new 5th skill. 
 

This is kind of a question about what the skills concept is.  

 

 

To me the skills concept is a bit like saying that in order to be a great chef, the food needs to be good temperature, flavorful, presented well and sanitary.  That doesn't teach any specifics about how to do any of those things, it just creates 4 broad areas of focus in order to judge whether someone has achieved the goal of good cooking.  Its useful to have recognition of those 4 broad goals or focus areas, but still the nitty gritty is needed, i.e..... the method.

 

I have felt for a long time that concepts like BERP and DIRT are borderline useless.  They are fun to use at a very high level to convey the idea of blending different skills but they really don't teach anyone the specific combinational movements they need.  They only elude to them.  This concept leaves it up to individuals to figure out on their own how to blend those 4 very broad skills into specific movement patterns needed for various tasks, such as releasing and initiating turns, as LF suggested.  There are numerous movement patterns needed to cook ski turns.  

 

Personally I don't like the "skills" concept that much because I think its too high level and doesn't get into the nitty gritty enough.  Most instructors do get into nitty gritty sooner or later with themselves and with their students.  They have to.  So the nitty gritty is where we need more definition and demonstration from PSIA.  I agree!  

 

But the question to put forth, is this 5th skill demonstrated by PSIA-I truly a high level focus area in a similar way as the other 4 PSIA skills?  


I cant speak for the PSIA, but in the CSIA, the Skills Concept is used, and full details as to what each skill are, and the method for developing/applying the skill are fully documented. 

 

If the PSIA really does just say the skills are A,B,C and D but provide no further information, then I agree - that is useless.  However, to be honest, I find that hard to believe.  I am sure all the detail is there.

post #21 of 26

I can't remember if the CSIA skills are exactly the same as PSIA, I seem to recall they are slightly different.  Can you elaborate on that SkiDude?   Just curious.

 

What do you think about their 5th skill?

post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

I can't remember if the CSIA skills are exactly the same as PSIA, I seem to recall they are slightly different.  Can you elaborate on that SkiDude?   Just curious. What do you think about their 5th skill?


Can you point which video and point it is referred to? Easier for me to find it...

post #23 of 26

I'm not sure what you mean.  We are discussing a video linked on the first post of the thread.  

 

My question for you is what are the 4 CSIA skills specifically, and separate question, what do you think about this 5th skill added by PSIA-I.

 

ps - I don't doubt for one second that CSIA has defined and documented things better than PSIA has.  I might get in trouble for saying that, but that was my impression of CSIA when I was involved for a short while 10 years ago.

post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

I'm not sure what you mean.  We are discussing a video linked on the first post of the thread.  

 

My question for you is what are the 4 CSIA skills specifically, and separate question, what do you think about this 5th skill added by PSIA-I.

 

ps - I don't doubt for one second that CSIA has defined and documented things better than PSIA has.  I might get in trouble for saying that, but that was my impression of CSIA when I was involved for a short while 10 years ago.


Ok, I think you are referring to the 6th video - not the one directly linked. 

 

Anyway with you now.

 

CSIA has 5 skills:

 

  1. Stance and balance
  2. Pivoting
  3. Edging
  4. Pressure Control
  5. Timing and Co-ordination

 

 

As for the "5th skill" in the 6th video....well, it needs to be looked at in the context of the other ones.  Based on the video titles, they dont appear to be discussing skills (although there is an obvious correlation), but rather "movements".  Is it valid?  Sure - but again, and I have written this a alot on this board...you can break skiing down anyway you like, as long as you cover all the basis.  The problem that often arises is people try to mix and match...this never works.  Its like putting a transmission from a Chevy with a Ford engine, in a Nissan chasis, under a Kia body...and people then wonder why nothing fits right.

 

At a highlevel then what have we got in the vids?

 

Moving

  • rotationally
  • front/back
  • side to side
  • up/down
  • diagonally

 

and

 

  • edging????

 

That is the odd duck really.  It dont fit.

 

You could argue as well...(and I would)...that the "diagonal" is also a an unnessarcy duck in this split, as diagonal, is as I understand the video, a combination of rotational, front/back and side to side.  So its redundant.

  •  
post #25 of 26

One of the open issues with this kind of stuff is the intended use. If the intent is to educate the public, that's one thing. If the intent is to educate instructors, that's another. The skills concepts and discussions of movements are most valuable to instructors. The public gets the most value from strong visuals or cookbook how tos. These clips are invaluable MA training fodder and conversation starters for instructors.

 

I think you will find the most valuable discussions about these clips will be held in person where there can be a direct interchange of comments viewing and reviewing short sections of the clips.

 

Perfect is the enemy of good. Great job Loki! Thanks again. 

post #26 of 26

These just showed up on my facebook page.  I guess they are officially released and endorsed by PSIA-I.

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