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Teaching one-footed skiing - Page 2

post #31 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

exactly!   icon14.gif

 

 

Without getting too far off topic though, I would like to hear more precisely what you mean by white pass turn and a bit of the history behind it.  The reason I ask is because last season a friend of mine and I were practicing some so called "white pass turns" as expected in intermountain division at various clinics, for L3 cert, etc.  He used to race as a kid in WA state about 40 years ago, so he had some kind of idea about what constitutes a white pass turn, which is different from what intermountain PSIA is using the term for today.  He felt that he needed to finish his turns on the inside (uphill ski) and then switch skis "somewhere" and ski most of the next turn on the inside ski, etc..but always finishing the turn on the inside ski.

 

The white pass turn they have been using around intermountain has the turn started on the downhill inside ski, but once the turn is in process its quite ok to set down the outside ski at around the fall line and finish out the turn on the outside ski.  

 

In fact, they like that its already set down well before the end of the turn so that there is no mistaking that the next turn will be started completely on that downhill ski.  The key thing they are looking for is the complete transition/edge change happening entirely on that downhill ski.

 

My friend who was focusing on finishing the turn on his inside uphill ski would often be a bit late switching to the downhill ski and truthfully was not starting the next turn on his downhill ski, thusly missing the point of the exercise.  Easy to hide for a lazy observer because it would certainly appear like he's skiing on his inside ski throughout the turn, but unless he made sure to set down his outside before the end of the turn and do the whole transition on it, he was not demonstrating the skills being sought after.

 

So this led me to wonder a bit about how he was taught as a youngster, he actually grew up near the Mahre's, all this stuff was front and center for him at the time.  Over the years it would seem that the "white pass" turn idea has been transmogrified into some variations or purposes, depending on who was using it, but I don't really know, I was not exposed to it much over the years to see the history of how it started or may have changed over time.

 

Sorry but you missed the point.  Stick to your own division or learn the difference between a Whitepass and a Tracer turn.

post #32 of 148

Teton, with all due respect what are you talking about?  

 

You did not understand me.  I know what a tracer is and I know what my division is doing for white pass turns, which is your division too I presume...and I am also supposing the other divisions are also the same.  Both JASP and LF explained the current white pass turn as its being done around Intermountain.  Do you disagree with that?

 

The question I had for JASP or anyone else is about the history of the white pass turn, how it came to be and why my friend would have had the wrong idea about it after having learned whatever he learned 40 years ago as a youth racer.

post #33 of 148

Steve Mahre used it in racing, and since the brothers came from White Pass it got that name. What the history is within PSIA I don't know.

 

(I'm back from vacation)

post #34 of 148

That much I know JAMT, but what exactly was mahre doing?  Was that the same thing being done today under the same name in PSIA?

post #35 of 148

I teach one footed skiing (outside foot turns and little toe edge traverses) to never evers before we ever put 2 skis on.  these are abled body people of all ages, its tend to start slow at first but people soon find them selves in much better balance than people taught other ways.

post #36 of 148

BTS Phil and Steve use that drill to this day in their ski camps. It is as I described it. PSIA usage might vary from trainer to trainer but as far as I know it is pretty much based on the Mahre brothers original version. The conceptual idea given by them was simple, a quicker transition was possible using what is also known as the White Pass Lean. A term they used to describe the idea of leaning downhill prior to the one footed edge change done on the downhill ski. Interestingly enough they describe the return to an outside ski dominant stance as occurring a split second after the edge change. Later in the book they talk about tactics (line) and a series of short fall line turns in a GS course. A wide step turn is offered first as a way to extract energy out of the ski tails and then it is contrasted with a White Pass Turn through the same gates. They state the tactical advantage of the later is the ability to ski a more direct line because the quicker transition allows them to establish the new outside dominant turn in a shorter distance.

post #37 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Teton, with all due respect what are you talking about?  

 

You did not understand me.  I know what a tracer is and I know what my division is doing for white pass turns, which is your division too I presume...and I am also supposing the other divisions are also the same.  Both JASP and LF explained the current white pass turn as its being done around Intermountain.  Do you disagree with that?

 

The question I had for JASP or anyone else is about the history of the white pass turn, how it came to be and why my friend would have had the wrong idea about it after having learned whatever he learned 40 years ago as a youth racer.

 

I never met either of the Mahre bothers, but I suspect your friend has memory problems.  I know that some of my older memories have drifted over 40 years.  There are people in my SS who do know the Mahre's and they all explain the Whitepass the way the division teaches it.  I think that it's telling that your friend was having trouble with the move.  Maybe he never learned it properly or didn't understand the reasons for it as a youth racer.  The timing of it is tricky.  Could his "opinion" have something to do with the fact that he wasn't getting it, so rather than fixing it, he asserts that Intermountain has it wrong?

 

I have never been a racer.  It is my understanding that the move that the Mahre brothers developed allowed them to get into the new turn quicker and ski closer to the fall line thus being faster.  A bit similar in outcome to the modern stivot move perhaps.  

 

I know some trainers who don't care to see the outside ski lifted and this causes confusion between the Whitepass and the Tracer for some people.  IMO the outside ski doesn't have to lift off the ground to make the move and probably wouldn't lift in a race.  For the purposes of the drill, I do think the ski should visibly lift a little.  The ski should smoothly touch down near the fall line as angulation develops and the forces of the turn naturally move towards the outside ski.  If the pressure doesn't move to the outside ski, you can't do the BTE to LTE transition smoothly and will always be late like your friend.  I don't believe that finishing on the old inside ski then trying to move to the new inside ski could ever be as fast and wasn't the tactic that the Mahre's used to win races.

 

For the record and because it comes up sometimes...  A tracer turn is one footed skiing with the non active foot on the snow but largely unpressured.  The same foot stays active through a whole set of turns so one turn features a BTE - LTE transition and the other turn features a LTE - BTE transition.  In the Whitepass turn a skier is skiing two footed and transferring pressure through both skis at different phases of every turn.

post #38 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

There are all kinds of useful reasons for drilling on one foot.  In my view its not neccessarily to teach them how to ski around like that, its to discover something, usually a deficiency of some kind that is being masked by one foot being a "crutch" to hide it.  

 

For example tracer turns, or what intermountain calls "white pass turns" (though I am not convinced they are the same thing Phil Mahre was doing back in the day), are useful for finding out a few things.  For one thing, you can't start a turn on the inside ski without bending the shovel of the ski, which means your weight can't be in the back seat.  For another thing if you have a tendency to ab-stem a bit at the turn start, again, you can't really do that if the outside ski has to be lifted in the air and you have to entirely start the turn by rolling from the BTE to the LTE of that downhill ski with your weight on it.  Your COM has to move across and your  fore-aft balance has to be just right.  If you aren't moving down the hill, the turn can't happen with your uphill ski lifted.

 

There are numerous examples of one footed drills which essentially force you to stop using one foot as a crutch in some way and immediately expose some kind of deficiency which you can then focus on and master before putting the other foot back down.

 

It was this post that made me think you where confused.

post #39 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I think it is easy to mistake one footed (or more accurately one ski) turns in the beginner progressions for those done by advanced racers types. Doing the beginner variety certainly develops balance but more importantly it offers a gliding foot option and a more familiar high friction foot option for when gliding and balance gets a too bit difficult. So in this situation it is an intermediate step towards gaining familiarity with the idea of both skis gliding. Which is not exactly a natural and comfortable sensation.

 

In the more advanced levels the focus tends to be more on lateral balance and lining up the body on the balance axis* in all three planes. Ironically, most folks tend to skid their one footed turns and thus their fore / aft balance tends to be a bit off. Staying centered and allowing the ski to carve takes patience and fine motor skills. The Marhes used it as a right / wrong comparative analysis drill as well.

 

So knowing your focus tends to be how to separate the drills and the commonality comes from the intermittent use of one ski and then morphing to constant use of the single ski.

Finally "getting" one ski skiing required me to get my for/aft balance correct. I tended to stand too tall and get back on my skis, thus pushing the tails. I do better carving on short radius turns on one ski than on two skis, but should fix my two ski turns this season and hopefully pass my Level 2 skiing.

post #40 of 148

Getting past the definition stuff, I think it's clear that modern ski technique shares many of the same fundamentals we see in one footed drills. It's perhaps worth mentioning that over using any drill can lead to lazy teaching habits. Knowing exactly the objective for each learning segment (what skill you are trying to develop) often leads us away from that sort of habitual reliance on a particular drill. Then again like many drills we can shift our focus to a different skill and still use the same drill. Which is something we might end up doing in a group lesson when each student needs to work on different skills but as a group three different drills does not make sense.

post #41 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

BTS Phil and Steve use that drill to this day in their ski camps. It is as I described it. PSIA usage might vary from trainer to trainer but as far as I know it is pretty much based on the Mahre brothers original version. The conceptual idea given by them was simple, a quicker transition was possible using what is also known as the White Pass Lean. A term they used to describe the idea of leaning downhill prior to the one footed edge change done on the downhill ski. Interestingly enough they describe the return to an outside ski dominant stance as occurring a split second after the edge change. Later in the book they talk about tactics (line) and a series of short fall line turns in a GS course. A wide step turn is offered first as a way to extract energy out of the ski tails and then it is contrasted with a White Pass Turn through the same gates. They state the tactical advantage of the later is the ability to ski a more direct line because the quicker transition allows them to establish the new outside dominant turn in a shorter distance.

 

Thanks very  much for that, that is the best description of it I have ever seen!  And yes that sounds exactly like what PSIA is doing now, though PSIA's version is perhaps more exaggerated for the sake of learning.

 

The part you said about returning to outside ski dominance a split second after the edge change also really caught my attention, and thanks for the explanation about the tactics.  I will put a little more thought into that when I'm on skis. 

post #42 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 

It was this post that made me think you where confused.

 

hehe I'm still not sure why you think I'm confused.  I think perhaps my use or mis use of the english language may have confused you.  My point was how two drills, tracers or white pass turns, both address a particular set of skills by removing one ski as a crutch.   How exactly you understood that as I don't know what tracers or white pass turns are, I'm not sure.   Peace brother.

post #43 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 

I never met either of the Mahre bothers, but I suspect your friend has memory problems.  I know that some of my older memories have drifted over 40 years.  There are people in my SS who do know the Mahre's and they all explain the Whitepass the way the division teaches it.  I think that it's telling that your friend was having trouble with the move.  Maybe he never learned it properly or didn't understand the reasons for it as a youth racer.  The timing of it is tricky.  Could his "opinion" have something to do with the fact that he wasn't getting it, so rather than fixing it, he asserts that Intermountain has it wrong?

 

 

He heh..  yes I agree he was wrong.  He would never assert that PSIA is wrong about anything by the way.  He just was asserting, like you did, that MY understand of it was off.  hehe.

 

But I agree his understanding was off.  

post #44 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

The question I had for JASP or anyone else is about the history of the white pass turn, how it came to be and why my friend would have had the wrong idea about it after having learned whatever he learned 40 years ago as a youth racer.

I first heard of the White Pass turn during a USSCA coaches clinic in the early 80's conducted by Harold Schoenhaar (Phillip & Steven's coach, as he would call them).  Again this was a few decades ago & my notes from that time could be anywhere, so I will have to go by my foggy memory wink.gif.  I do recall that Harold was very clear that the "White Pass turn" was NOT a technique, but something that he & the Mahres recognized in their skiing & decided to label it.  The "move" occurred when they were late finishing a turn & allowed them to cut the line off & dive directly down the falline toward the next gate.  Basically, it was a recovery move.  Remember, this was the era of converging (Mahres) & diverging (Stenmark) step turns.  I could be wrong on this part, but IIRC the WPT was first recognized when they were training SL at Mt. Hood.  I have seen more than one racer employ it over the years in all disciplines.  Lasse Kjus is one who comes to mind immediately.

 

I think that JASP & TPJ have given a pretty good description of how the drill is demonstrated at least in the Intermountain, Western & I assume Rocky Mountain divisions.  In PSIA-I the "White Pass Turn" is one of 7 self assessment drills that a candidate may be asked to demonstrate during an exam.  Again from memory, the others are:  Tracer turns, Hop (spiess) turns, Railers (Railroad track turns), One Footed Railers, Uphill Ski Garlands, Changing edges on a flexion.  I think there are a few others like Short turns with a double pole touch or with no pole swing etc.

 

Here is a rough video of the White Pass turn drill shot on a sticky, slushy Spring day at Snowbasin.  The actual skiing starts about 20 seconds in.

 

 

JF

post #45 of 148

I think von Gruningen was the first one to use it extensively for speed rather than recovery.

 

post #46 of 148

Yes, right here at about 40 seconds in:

 

 

& then again a few more times on the way down.

post #47 of 148

There's an important functional difference between the two drills/movement patterns.  While you CAN do White Pass turns (which some have even tried to brand as von Gruenigens -- no one here, and the reference to him is correct -- that skiing travels very well to 2013) on mellow terrain, they are a bit more demanding and also can be done at higher speeds and forces (and are actually easier with a bit more speed).  Tracer turns can be a precursor to developing the ability to do something like a White Pass turn,  are easier to do, but are a building block, and everyone, von Gruenigen included, is going to have a speed/G limit beyond which they can't do tracers.  Tracer turns to me ultimately are a building block to true one-ski skiing, which White Pass turns clearly can't be.  One reason why race programs don't do tracer turns much with young skiers, but do lots of one-ski skiing among other drills.

 

Paerson more recently used to throw out a fair number of White Pass turns in SL, among others.  Along with all sorts of other sequential use of skis which supposedly ain't correct...

post #48 of 148

Agreed, the White Pass Turn is a type of transition and certainly should not be mistaken for skiing on one ski. The common elements present in those drills are the transitions and more specifically the engagement of the lateral edge and how we line up the body so that edge will hold. It's not exactly how we would move using a two footed style but the deprograming of a habitual error allows us to help a student replace that error with a more appropriate movement pattern. IMO that is perhaps the biggest benefit from exercises that feature alternate balancing activities like we see in all of these drills.

post #49 of 148

FWIW, I think that in the context of modern learning or self assessment, tracers and white pass turns are for developing awareness of the same skills, they are very much related.  The purpose is not to learn how to ski on the inside ski, though its easy for people to misconstrue the drill to focus on that.  The purpose is to learn to have your fore-aft weight exactly where it needs to be at edge change transition and to learn to move your CoM down the hill, to release that downhill ski and move your COM across to the inside.  Or to become aware of the fact that you are not.  The focus should be on the transitions, not the power phase.  And with tracers it should only be on every other transition.

 

Tracers are generally much easier to execute because you don't have to be bothered at all with changing which ski you are standing on.  You just stay on one ski and make your turns.  The downside is that it means that all the turns on one side will be performing the self assessment drill and the other side will just be somewhat normal transitions.  So in order to assess both sides, you have to do two passes, first on one ski, then the other.

 

It also has a downside in that the power phase of your turns on one side will be outside dominant, pretty normal, and the other side will be inside dominant for the power phase of the turn, which is awkward, not normal and not the skill being assessed!

 

Some people will focus on that section where they are skiing through the power phase on the inside ski, because it feels awkward and it does require some special attention in order to do it and remain in balance.  However its not really the purpose of the self assessment.  Perhaps it creates some general purpose balance awareness and ability to recover, etc, but the real purpose of this self assessment is to check the transitions,( and for tracers is only one side at a time, the side that finishes weighted on the outside ski ) and you roll across to the LTE to start the next turn on it as the inside ski.  That is where primary focus should be for the reasons stated above. 

 

White pass turns are much more difficult to execute because you have to coordinate a weight change from foot to foot, at a place in the turn where you don't normally do that in regular ski turns.... around or before the apex.  But the advantage is that you get to assess transitions on both sides in one pass, and also you don't have the disadvantage I previously stated of skiing through the power phase of the turn on either inside ski.  You basically can make every power phase feel kind of normal, on the outside ski and the only awkward part becomes the transition where you keep your weight on the downhill ski for the assessment.  I should say, if your fore-aft balance is good and if you're moving your CoM through, it will not feel awkward.  That is the point, to make it not feel awkward.  

 

Personally I think that white pass turns are LESS awkward to do then tracers once you learn them, because of the reason I mentioned above about skiing through the power phase on one inside ski.  Also because its symmetrical.  But what is awkward about them is the weight change around the apex and it takes some practice to do it at all, much less gracefully.  For this reason it is generally much more difficult to do.  

 

A skier doing them needs to be very aware of what they are trying to accomplish, why the awkward weight change timing difference, what they are assessing, and on top of that, in order to do it smoothly will have to take into account certain things around the apex for the weight change, which is not really the primary focus of the self assessment, but nonetheless a focus required in order to perform the drill.

 

Tracers on the other hand, remove that additional requirement of the weight change...you just stay on one ski and focus your mind on every other transition and you'll assess yourself.


Edited by borntoski683 - 8/7/13 at 1:36pm
post #50 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

 

White pass turns are much more difficult to execute because you have to coordinate a weight change from foot to foot, at a place in the turn where you don't normally do that in regular ski turns.... around or before the apex.  But the advantage is that you get to assess transitions on both sides in one pass, and also you don't have the disadvantage I previously stated of skiing through the power phase of the turn on either inside ski.  You basically can make every power phase feel kind of normal, on the outside ski and the only awkward part becomes the transition where you keep your weight on the downhill ski for the assessment.  I should say, if your fore-aft balance is good and if you're moving your CoM through, it will not feel awkward.  That is the point, to make it not feel awkward.  

 

Personally I think that white pass turns are LESS awkward to do then tracers once you learn them, because of the reason I mentioned above about skiing through the power phase on one inside ski.  Also because its symmetrical.  But what is awkward about them is the weight change around the apex and it takes some practice to do it at all, much less gracefully.  For this reason it is generally much more difficult to do. 

 

And then there is, of course, the fully weighted release. This is required by the White Pass turn, but it can be used in any turn.

 

The pressure change needn't be awkward. Simply roll from the BTE to the LTE of the loaded outside ski. Allow the COM to move downhill. The release will happen even if the ski is fully weighted and the old inside/new outside ski is off the ground, as in the White Pass turn. The centrifugal force of the new turn will pull the skier onto the new outside ski quite naturally. Just allow it. Pressure transfer occurs before the fall line, and I don't find it awkward at all.

 

On a groomed run in particular, such a passive weight transfer is easy, without requiring any unweighting, stepping, pushing, whatever. But I guess I'm just lazy.

post #51 of 148

Weighted release definitely is what is happening during White pass and tracer drills.  Its just that doing white pass turns FORCES you to do a weighted release.  Agreed on that.

 

I don't agree with you that a weighted release is easier.  Its harder and that is the point of doing the drill.  Bending your inside ski and getting it to start the turn requires that your CoM moves further down the hill then it would if you were pressuring the uphill ski.  Also requires more strictly that your fore-aft balance is spot on.

 

A lot of skiers end up blocking themselves by bracing against the downhill ski and then they get the dreaded ab-stem of their uphill ski.  With a weighted release where you keep the uphill ski in the air well past transition, you absolutely cannot block yourself and still make a turn, you have to tip the downhill weighted ski more aggresively and allow your CoM to flow down the hill or no turn will happen.  And in order to get that downhill inside ski to start turning into the new turn without any help from the other ski (which is in the air), your fore-aft weight has to be spot on and your CoM moving down the hill.

 

Actually if you change weight at transition to the uphill ski, that will create MORE toppling effect of your CoM into the new turn and really removes that downhill ski blockage in general, but only if you do the weight change while you still have some turn G forces.   Doing a weighted release, reduces that toppling effect and thus other smaller factors that are not so dependent on turn G forces come more into play and forces you to get them all mastered.

post #52 of 148
Actually, the old idea of up and down transitions from that era makes me question the weighted release requirement. I learned the drills with weighted and un-weighted edge changes.
post #53 of 148

can you please clarify what you are meaning JASP you lost me a bit.  

 

I was not referring to anything up and down.  Also you said you learned the drills with weighted or unweighted edge changes.  Which drills are you talking about?  White pass turn has one ski in the air, so fundamentally it has to be weighted.  Right?

 

Anyway please clarify

post #54 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Actually, the old idea of up and down transitions from that era makes me question the weighted release requirement. I learned the drills with weighted and un-weighted edge changes.

Yes, you could unweight, just as you can with two skis, but it seems like a lot of effort, especially since you're only on one leg. "Very athletic" as one of my mentors used to say when observing someone working entirely too hard.

 

So you're correct, it is possible to do an unweighted single foot transition. I never learned single-footed skiing with an unweighted edge change, so I failed to consider it.

 

Unweighting can, of course, give you some options, especially with regard to quickly redirecting the ski. I'll admit to being a fan of good ground contact, along with its ability to provide good control right from initiation, but unweighting and floating certainly are useful to have in the toolbox.

post #55 of 148
I think we are getting out to left field now. I was not implying a single footed unweighted transition and I doubt JASP was either unless he also misunderstood me.

I'm on iPhone now so I won't go back to find what I wrote to quote it now, but in terms of single footed drills like white pass turns there is no unweighting of your one and only ski.

White pass simulates a weighted release which is also not a classical old school unweighting thing, this discussion has nothing to do with unweighting the skier as a whole, but when you relate one legged things to normal weighted releases or non weighted releases then you can talk about weight on each individual ski as you transfer weight between them, but we are not talking about overall skier unweighting here at all.

I made a contrast to normal transitions where the weight is transferred to the uphill ski. THAT IS NOT UNWEIGHTING. That is simply transferring the weight to the other leg. A "weighted release" does not transfer the weight to the uphill ski. Neither type of release requires or implies overall unweighting. One legged white pass turns force a so called "weighted release". It's called that because the downhill ski remains weighted instead of transferring the weight to the other uphill ski. Normally when you transfer weight to the uphill ski, the downhill ski becomes unweighted or at least lightened, but the skier is not unweighted unless desired but that is another topic. For the normal transition where weight is transferred to the uphill ski, the skier still has weight but its not called a "weighted release" which is reserved for describing how the downhill ski is released.

Well maybe this is another one of those things where definitions are changing depending upon who you talk to. I hope not.
Edited by borntoski683 - 8/7/13 at 10:17pm
post #56 of 148
You guys need to play with the move more. Imagine Bob's trampman graphic combined with a white pass turn. You are floating through the edge change and some vsulting naturally occurs. That allows you to extend the new outside leg as well as the new inside one. All the strong pressure occurs at the fall line though. Hyper Dynamic situations demand that versatility...
post #57 of 148

right back at you JASP.

 

what does vsulting mean?

 

I really fail to understand whatever point you're trying to make.   But I do know that its not neccessary to unweight while you do white pass turns, nor is it desirable unless you want to pivot the ski your skiing on, which is in a way cheating for this self assessment, if you even manage to do it successfully.  But if you feel like it, why not....have at it.


Edited by borntoski683 - 8/7/13 at 10:56pm
post #58 of 148
For me, one ski skiing involves significant fitness training because my local hills only have drag lifts. Anybody that hasn't taken a long drag lift standing on one leg should try it :-)

Another option is to ski down on one ski carrying the other ski. This adds significantly to the difficulty. The weight and rotational inertia of the ski makes balancing harder and you have to to the exercise without poles.

I think one ski skiing is a great exercise. It's also a lot of fun.
post #59 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 

Sorry but you missed the point.  Stick to your own division or learn the difference between a Whitepass and a Tracer turn.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Teton, with all due respect what are you talking about?  

 

 

The never ending story. I thought this thread was locked?

post #60 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

right back at you JASP.

 

what does vsulting mean?

 

I really fail to understand whatever point you're trying to make.   But I do know that its not neccessary to unweight while you do white pass turns, nor is it desirable unless you want to pivot the ski your skiing on, which is in a way cheating for this self assessment, if you even manage to do it successfully.  But if you feel like it, why not....have at it.

I suppose that would be vaulting. Enough vaulting and you are unweighted, even if the little if any of the remaining weight is on the downhill ski. I think that was JASPs point, that you can be unweighted when you do white pass transitions.

Perhaps part of the confusion comes from the fact that a certain ski school calls the white pass "weighted release".

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