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Teaching one-footed skiing - Page 5

post #121 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Adding a slight rotary force... I'll let JASP do the heavy lifting here with this one.

     I will add that even with a slight absence of sufficient fore/aft pressuring especially during finishiation, femoral rotation will be lessened to a degree such that additional rotary is needed via these arm hook type of movements which can be seen in racers and non-racers alike. 

 

    Marko's right on point here, and I agree...the reason that we don't see full on shoulder rotation with the coach is that he's nearly where he needs to be in terms of balancing. As gets said a lot here, YMMV (and Mikaela's YOUNG and STRONG and FLEXIBLE). The small amount of arm hooking is simply adding just enough rigidity to his core which enables him to transfer this rotary directly to the ski--it's why he doesn't seem quite as fluid as Ms. Shiffrin, IMVHO. I would posit that his obliques are more tensed than Mikaela's, though we have no way of seeing this...

 

   But perhaps Jasp can help clarify--I'm sure he has something in mind here.

 

    zenny

post #122 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

It's interesting how words finally had to give way to imagery to keep the communications going in this thread. 

I believe the adage that the chief technical hurdle to parallel skiing is the ability to balance on one foot. Sometimes that simple fact gets lost in all the verbiage. 

1000 words, meet video. smile.gif
post #123 of 148

Balance is the key but I already mentioned the CoM and that was pretty much my take on the difference. Especially during the transitions, her core balance is simply better, as it should be considering her place among the worlds best. I suppose the best way to say this is talent will show up regardless of the drill. It would be interesting to get Ligety to do this drill. I suspect his execution would be right there with hers.

 

I would suggest some dry land homework here. I just did this drill because I wanted to feel if moving my hand in and out would change my balance in any significant way.

 

First get barefoot and stand one footed on a folded blanket, or piece of foam. The idea is to produce a soft platform to stand on.

BTW, make sure you are standing in a hallway where falling is less likely.

 

Now before we make edge changes let's talk about hiking the non-stance hip. Keeping that foot off the floor requires some tension in the muscles surrounding that hip. That shows up as a difference in bilateral muscle tension. As Chad pointed out in another thread excessive tension often leads to excessive rigidity. So make sure you avoid getting too rigid in the core.

 

So now it's time to actually do some active lateral edge moves. First without moving the arms around very much. Do some BTE / LTE moves using the ankle, then the knee, then the hips.

Now while balancing on that leg move the arm (flex and extend the elbow). What happens? Do you feel the need to make any balance corrections? Or do you slowly fall in the direction you move your hand? I find myself doing the later since my skiing style includes very quiet hands and arms. But what do the rest of you feel?

post #124 of 148

Supposing the hand moving has an effect, Could it be the move helps move us into the turn? If it's doing that, then does that mean we are slightly too far inside the turn at that point? What do you suppose would happen if he had to keep his hands quiet? What work around would he use? Being completely hypothetical here I would say releasing the core a bit more would be one, more shoulder angulation might be another. But rather than prescribe solutions I would love it if everyone played around with the drill and shared their results.

post #125 of 148

   Moving my hand seemed to have little effect...perhaps a slight movement.

 

 

   zenny


Edited by zentune - 8/12/13 at 1:58pm
post #126 of 148
If there's ever a time to test this with roller blades or ice skates, now is it! This is a tough one statically because of the lack of commensurate centripetal forces involved in actual skiing.
post #127 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

 

I would venture to say that he's a slalom racer.  Looks like the start of a cross block.

He's more of a speed guy, one of the Cochrans via his mother, and a USST'er.  Not a coach, but an incredible athlete and racer in his own right.

 

He does have a bit of a Grandi-esque hand jive that you see even in speed events.  In the case of the skills quest video, he's just being relaxed...and the penalty for that is he actually doesn't leave that clean a cut on his LTE, where Schiffren does.

 

He is so athletic that he can get away with it, but it's not helping him overall.  That type of rotation can help with carving but makes it harder to move into the next turn for racing (he has a good bit of sl dnfs), or, for most people, for regular skiing for that matter...or for skiing on one ski.


Edited by CTKook - 8/12/13 at 2:39pm
post #128 of 148

Thanks CT, her core moving ever so slightly better allows her to maintain quieter hands and flow better through the transitions. My take is that shows up overall as the more fluid yet more dynamic qualities. Not that he is stiff, (he's not IMO), as much as she is so accurate that it looks like she is more relaxed.

post #129 of 148

Zenny, are you barefoot on foam? That part of the drill allows the subtle differences to be more noticeable.

 

As far as static verses dynamic drills, balancing forces is balancing forces. The idea was to isolate the hand move while keeping everything else constant. Thus making it easier to determine how moving the hand changes our balance. The soft surface allows us to topple easier compared to standing on a bare floor. Again setting us up to experience the slight changes the arm move produces.

post #130 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Zenny, are you barefoot on foam? That part of the drill allows the subtle differences to be more noticeable.

 

   

   Yes. I did it on too firm a surface the first time (thin carpet pad). I moved as you described you did when I did it on a softer surface (thicker carpet with a blanket).

 

   The "hook arm" movement can also be commonly seen in advanced skiers skiing deep-ish (12" or more), heavy powder too, I've noticed. I suppose the added rotary is helping move things along--especially if their speed is down or the slope is lower angled. Not necessarily a detriment I suppose, as long as the body doesn't turn as a single unit, as can be a result in these cases at times...

 

   Hook arm also shows up on steeper groomed surfaces when commitment with the Cm inside the new turn is delayed...

 

    zenny


Edited by zentune - 8/12/13 at 3:52pm
post #131 of 148

she is fun to watch, such an integrated athlete, her whole body is involved.

 

I think some of the discrepancy in the vids is just the clothing, both spines appear to oscillate to either side nicely. What a great representation of seeing a dynamic pelvis and trunk over the stance leg, you can see how dynamic the hip/pelvic bone have to be while transferring all that energy.

 

with regard to the arm differences, redundancy in movement strikes again IMO, she appears to drive more from the trunk, the balance between the front and back of the trunk are better, to overcome less dynamic front and back line reciprocation a more forward arm will suffice 2 objectives, it activates the front of the trunk via pectoral/obliques and lengthens the latissimus. The lat lengthening can be a movement choice to increase the opposite side hip power via increased tissue tension. Both are styles are suitable, it could be debated that one affords more variability and speed of movement, but that would be very context dependent.

 

JASP, what is BTE/LTE

post #132 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 what is BTE/LTE

Big & little toe edge...

post #133 of 148

Here's my thoughts on this. 

 

His arms move that way because he wants them to. 

Our arms are like tails in that we move them to keep our balance.  He moves them the same way every time.  He's in balance.  If he changed the way he moves his arms, he would change the way he skis.

 

If he was out of balance, they would move differently each time but it is the same each time.  Does it help with rotary?  Sure, but it looks like he doesn't need to do it.  Just chooses to.

 

I would also guess that this isn't only present when he's skiing on one ski but when free skiing also.  Made me think of cadence like he was marching.  He's too consistent with it to make me think he isn't trying to do it.  He might not realize he's doing it, but he always does it.

 

Should he stop moving his arms like that?  Yes.  Micheala nailed the drill.  Do it like her.

 

I know that when I first started skiing on one ski, I tended to drag a ski pole to create torque to make the turn. Complete opposite approach to making the turn.  I don't think he "needs" to do this, but I do think he's done it this way for a while and it has become part of his skiing.

post #134 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Here's my thoughts on this. 

 

  If he changed the way he moves his arms, he would change the way he skis.

Bingo, it might be a slight change but his skiing would change. Is what he does an error, or personal style thing? Considering how cleanly she performs the drill, It is IMO a minor error that he probably did as a junior and never saw a need to change. Most here would love to ski as well as either one of these skiers but most here would never invest the time and effort needed to ski at that level on a consistent basis. Success is when preparation meets opportunity, even when just performing drills...

post #135 of 148

^^^^^I agree that it IS a minor error...and one that is difficult to get rid of at that! But we have to be careful here, for while it is a possible distant 3rd cousin (twice removed from a marriage) to upper rotary, ample upper/lower separation is still present. Still, a certain "tenseness" can still be seen at times.....

 

   I (or rather, we) worked hard on my OWN skiing to rid myself of this (mostly wink.gif)back in the day, BTW...but I do think it does have it's uses.

 

 

    zenny

post #136 of 148
Thread Starter 

Zenny,

What are its uses?  

post #137 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

The never ending story. I thought this thread was locked? (Shoebags comment)

 

This is a different thread.  In that other thread you were the only person who got their panties stuck in wad.  The three parties who I mentioned are all OK with what I said and in some cases we exchanged a few nice PMs about it.

 

Wow, you didn't even have to duck for that to go over your head?

post #138 of 148

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Zenny,

What are its uses?  

 

    As stated previously--when sufficient femoral rotation hasn't been achieved. Like in heavier powder at lower speeds/lower slope angle. Or on steeper pitches or firmer snow, when the Cm hasn't moved far enough inside the new turn as needed. It seems to me (and perhaps others here would refute this) that it can be a result of a slight lack of fore/aft (and subsequently) lateral commitment to the new turn. Perhaps the skier isn't entirely comfortable with what they are doing and the "hook arm" (as we called it back in the day at the 'Bowl in Missoula) is the unconscious result of this.  After all, moving the arm (or hand) in or out--assuming the entire arm carriage hasn't moved as well--does slightly alter the positioning of the Cm when the  turn(s) being made are considered in their entirety. 

 

    H.A. gives us that little bit extra when it's needed, though I think it's by and large an unconscious thing. To this day we still see racers with this positioning from time to time...especially if they are low and late and need to make an adjustment. I personally don't think it's something that needs to be taught, but rather minimized, to ensure that it doesn't evolve in to a crutch. As Jasp said above:

 

 Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro    
   "It is IMO a minor error that he probably did as a junior and never saw a need to change."

 

   I would like to be clear that I don't think the error is egregious nor is it necessarily indicative of "bad skiing", or anything like that, I just personally wouldn't want to see it present at all times, as it may be symptomatic of other underlying issues (be they physical or mental). I felt myself using H.A. (is there an official term for it?? IDK...) last season in some cement-like heavy "pow". I was on a medium pitched slope and my skis were running slow for the first several turns until I got up to speed...at which time I was easily able to "ditch it." 

 

    I am curious as to others thoughts here (Jasp, Jamt, 4ster, BTS, etc...) to read their views. Perhaps I'm off the mark herebiggrin.gif, but in summation I feel that ultimately such movements impart a slight rotary force to the Bos and it is probably MORE noticeable/prevalent when performing one-legged skiing drills of the type being discussed/seen here as these are when accurate fore/aft/lateral movements of the Cm are crucial...

 

    zenny


Edited by zentune - 8/12/13 at 10:22pm
post #139 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

He does have a bit of a Grandi-esque hand jive that you see even in speed events.  In the case of the skills quest video, he's just being relaxed...and the penalty for that is he actually doesn't leave that clean a cut on his LTE, where Schiffren does.

I do not have access to the video from where I am, but in my mind, from a point on the one ski drill should help my foot/leg/body to learn to really carve, as clean as possible, on the inside of the ski. If this is true, as I know it is with roller skates, it will help to take with you more energy into the next turn...

post #140 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Here's my thoughts on this. 

 

His arms move that way because he wants them to. 

Our arms are like tails in that we move them to keep our balance.  He moves them the same way every time.  He's in balance.  If he changed the way he moves his arms, he would change the way he skis.

 

If he was out of balance, they would move differently each time but it is the same each time.  Does it help with rotary?  Sure, but it looks like he doesn't need to do it.  Just chooses to.

 

I would also guess that this isn't only present when he's skiing on one ski but when free skiing also.  Made me think of cadence like he was marching.  He's too consistent with it to make me think he isn't trying to do it.  He might not realize he's doing it, but he always does it.

 

Should he stop moving his arms like that?  Yes.  Micheala nailed the drill.  Do it like her.

 

I know that when I first started skiing on one ski, I tended to drag a ski pole to create torque to make the turn. Complete opposite approach to making the turn.  I don't think he "needs" to do this, but I do think he's done it this way for a while and it has become part of his skiing.

If the arms are balancing tools, then would it not seem even more important to keep them as relaxed as possible?  When it comes down to milli second adjustments the person with the least amount of tension to have to adjust to then reposition their arms for a balancing move will be faster, no?

 

Of course there is little reason to change what works for each of us, but from a sensory skill side, that ski drill with active and relaxed arms would really highlight trunk/core dynamics.

 

whatever the reason, be it managing high ground forces in a turn or having reflexive tightness because you have never slid over snow, the loss of the dynamic mobility of the spine/"core" notify the nervous system that the only option for saving yourself is through the use of the dynamics arms, there is nothing wrong, its not an error, but in relation to someone with better trunk control they will have more degrees of freedom, variability, and movement choice, they can risk it while remaining more efficient.


Edited by chad - 8/13/13 at 4:17am
post #141 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post

If the arms are balancing tools, then would it not seem even more important to keep them as relaxed as possible?  When it comes down to milli second adjustments the person with the least amount of tension to have to adjust to then reposition their arms for a balancing move will be faster, no?

 

Of course there is little reason to change what works for each of us, but from a sensory skill side, that ski drill with active and relaxed arms would really highlight trunk/core dynamics.

 

whatever the reason, be it managing high ground forces in a turn or having reflexive tightness because you have never slid over snow, the loss of the dynamic mobility of the spine/"core" notify the nervous system that the only option for saving yourself is through the use of the dynamics arms, there is nothing wrong, its not an error, but in relation to someone with better trunk control they will have more degrees of freedom, variability, and movement choice, they can risk it while remaining more efficient.

 

Yes and is why it is recommended to not do it.  However, people do this all the time and maintain perferct balance (i.e. ride a unicycle while juggling bowling pins).  It could be that swinging the arms, like pedalling back and forth on a unicycle, is what helps maintains balance (always in motion).

 

Since I've had the pleasure of spending too much time in physical therapy, much of what I had to do was things like stand on a bosu ball and move a medicine ball side high to other side low while doing squats on one leg.

 

The human body really is remarkable.

post #142 of 148

I like teaching one ski maneuvers as a survival technique, and the younger skiers like this idea. Easy sell that if you run into trouble and suddenly have to step onto the normally not used ski you can get yourself out of a potential crash situation. Goes over pretty well with the under teen groups.

 

For the older and better skier (say high intermediate and up) this is good training for controlling how you are weighting your ski's. Practicing 100% on the inside ski for turns makes it easier for skiers to learn to moderate pressure on both skis as needed through the turn.

 

The idea is to have fun, and sometimes items like pole swings might as well be left alone unless working on the skills needed to make the run .001 seconds faster. My learning of the pole swing moving inside or in front of the body is not a good thing and would definitely dock you on an exam. does it deter the coach's skiing, probably not and he could still ski the pants off of me

 

(this is a pretty rambling thread. duel.gif)

post #143 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

    I am curious as to others thoughts here (Jasp, Jamt, 4ster, BTS, etc...) to read their views.

 

    zenny

 

To me, the hand and arm motion displayed is an affectation of this particular athlete.  In one of Joubert's books, I think he would call it a "Useless Gesticulation" wink.gif.  As JASP mentioned, it is probably a carry over from a habit he picked up early in his development.  I see it (& have seen it in many skiers) as a wind-up/release movement that can work, but not the most direct or efficient.  It would be interesting to see how this changes as he moves up the ranks.  According to the USSCA the ideal place for the hands are outside the elbows.  Of course, this  "ideal" is a neutral position & things can get wild in the heat of battle.  In this instance it seems to be a habit that we would see as a constant in most of his skiing.  Schifferin's hands & arms are much more disciplined & closer to the ideal.

 

I think it would be difficult to just change this movement, we would have to modify it & eventually replace it with something more effective. 

 

 

This is a "one ski" thread & we are getting a bit off topic, but good observations.

 

Personally, I have had a flying left elbow for as long as I can remember eek.gif !

 

JF

post #144 of 148

I agree with 4ster's assessment.  In my opinion when skiers ski with a little elbow-out move, its a defensive instinct.  

 

But it can also just become habitual.  Years ago I had a tendency to do it a bit because I was also riding a lot of off-road motorcycles where its a good thing to have the elbows out, and developed a habit there, but later on...it was pointed out to me that its "defensive" in some way so I have worked hard on that particular thing and mostly keep my elbows in now.


Edited by borntoski683 - 8/13/13 at 11:34am
post #145 of 148

I will say further that when the elbow goes out that way, it can (but not always), cause the skier to also rotate the shoulder a little bit, which can lead to worse things.  Its better to keep the elbow in.  

post #146 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   The "hook arm" movement can also be commonly seen in advanced skiers skiing deep-ish (12" or more), heavy powder too, I've noticed. I suppose the added rotary is helping move things along--especially if their speed is down or the slope is lower angled. Not necessarily a detriment I suppose, as long as the body doesn't turn as a single unit, as can be a result in these cases at times...

 

 

Lito Flores has something to say similar to this in one of his books, I had to go find it, "Breakthrough on the new skis", p229.  He talks about lifting the outside hand as you start the turn, which helps to unweight you and to bank you.  (no mention of rotary).  He says its useful in deeper or heavier snow and I agree.  It should not be a habitual overused move, something you use as needed.  

 

To a certain degree, lifting the elbow can be involved in this, and perhaps that is what you're seeing Zenny, but in my view, upper rotation is not useful in powder skiing any more than any other skiing.  The heavier the snow, the more you should want to keep your skis gliding forward instead of trying to pivot them somehow.  They need to be banked and bent to create turns.  Upper rotary coming from a shoulder turn would not help, IMHO.

post #147 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

 

    As stated previously--when sufficient femoral rotation hasn't been achieved. Like in heavier powder at lower speeds/lower slope angle. Or on steeper pitches or firmer snow, when the Cm hasn't moved far enough inside the new turn as needed. It seems to me (and perhaps others here would refute this) that it can be a result of a slight lack of fore/aft (and subsequently) lateral commitment to the new turn. Perhaps the skier isn't entirely comfortable with what they are doing and the "hook arm" (as we called it back in the day at the 'Bowl in Missoula) is the unconscious result of this.  After all, moving the arm (or hand) in or out--assuming the entire arm carriage hasn't moved as well--does slightly alter the positioning of the Cm when the  turn(s) being made are considered in their entirety. 

 

    H.A. gives us that little bit extra when it's needed, though I think it's by and large an unconscious thing. To this day we still see racers with this positioning from time to time...especially if they are low and late and need to make an adjustment. I personally don't think it's something that needs to be taught, but rather minimized, to ensure that it doesn't evolve in to a crutch. As Jasp said above:

 

 Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro    
   "It is IMO a minor error that he probably did as a junior and never saw a need to change."

 

   I would like to be clear that I don't think the error is egregious nor is it necessarily indicative of "bad skiing", or anything like that, I just personally wouldn't want to see it present at all times, as it may be symptomatic of other underlying issues (be they physical or mental). I felt myself using H.A. (is there an official term for it?? IDK...) last season in some cement-like heavy "pow". I was on a medium pitched slope and my skis were running slow for the first several turns until I got up to speed...at which time I was easily able to "ditch it." 

 

    I am curious as to others thoughts here (Jasp, Jamt, 4ster, BTS, etc...) to read their views. Perhaps I'm off the mark herebiggrin.gif, but in summation I feel that ultimately such movements impart a slight rotary force to the Bos and it is probably MORE noticeable/prevalent when performing one-legged skiing drills of the type being discussed/seen here as these are when accurate fore/aft/lateral movements of the Cm are crucial...

 

    zenny

If he was swinging that hand it might have an effect in the rotary realm, although from what I see the move is arrested by the elbow and never really reaches the shoulder. So any effect would be very small indeed. If anything it has the slight lateral accelerating effect I experienced standing in the hall. Even that was so slight that it took a very soft platform to show how flexing / extending the elbow affects my balance. Myself I didn't find fore / aft to be all that effected but maybe that's just me. In any event, my opinion is that if we had footage of Vonn, Ligety, and most of the top 15 doing that drill we would see a lot of quiet hands since at their level they have distilled their movements down to a level of accuracy only a few will ever truly understand. As it should be, I am a hack at golf and even with all of my biomechanical studies I will never understand Tiger's golf swing to the level that I can hit a golf ball anywhere near as well as he does. Same goes for skiing as well as the top 15 WC stars. Proof is in the performance and Shiffren simply is the better skier and it shows up in her drills as well as in the gates. Appreciating her talent and marveling at her mastery is just about all that I can hope to do. It goes to show how many tiers of performance exist in the sport.

post #148 of 148
definitely agreed fellas that any effect would be minimal and most likely not premeditated nor taught, either. it did provide for some interesting discussion, though! smile.gif

zenny
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