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Why is "counter" a bad word? - Page 7  

post #181 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

I don't know if you are as angry and bent-outa-shape as this makes you sound.  I hope not.

This discussion degenerates if people make personal put-downs of this flavor.

This thread should be about skiing, not about people.  


I know you dont get it because you dont understand the topic (no offense), but when BtS posts his version of "what others think" and gets it as outright wrong as he does, its rude, disrepectful, and just plain ignorant.  It shouldn't be tolerated.  Post what you think, and why.  Dont professes to know what others think.  Or to make up false rationilisations for others, its total crap.

post #182 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

Point taken, Skidude.  I misread you.  Sorry.  

Question:  Do you teach counter to most of your novice recreational skiers, or do you tend to reserve it for intermediates/advanced students, or does it depend totally on the person?


I probably wouldnt use the the word "counter" with "never - evers"...but I do teach it Day 1.  After that, I teach it as the students require.  I find with shorter modern skis, this is less of an issue then it was back in the day, as it is just so much easier to do with modern gear.

post #183 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

BTS you are certainly entitled to your opinions but So too am I. I stand by what I wrote and it is quite congruent with all three organization I have taught in. Is it universal? No more so than the turns you described. Nor is it any less.
Peace brother,
We are really not very far apart here.

 

I agree,  I specifically didn't try to say my way is better than another even if I think it is.  I said my way is different and not everyone agrees that dual footed steering is better.  Does'nt matter how many ski instructor orgs are doing it.  That doesn't make it better either.  better for them as far as they are concerned.  and visa versa.  Let's save that debate for another time,....wait no lets not debate that, it never goes anywhere.

 

The point here is only to recognize the division and perhaps gain insight as to why the word "counter" seems to vanished from some.

post #184 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 


I know you dont get it because you dont understand the topic (no offense), 

 

How can no offense be taken to that comment?  She clearly understands the topic as well.

 

Clearly you and bts come in to any discussion with each other with your dukes up, bad enough - but no reason to add collateral damage to the attacks.

post #185 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

 

How can no offense be taken to that comment?  She clearly understands the topic as well.

 

Clearly you and bts come in to any discussion with each other with your dukes up, bad enough - but no reason to add collateral damage to the attacks.


Easy.  I dont know anything about music compared to you....its not offensive, I am comfortable with that.  It doesnt diminish my value as a person...why would it???? 

 

The issue is this SMJ - because you think that only woodwind instruments are capable of being played in summer (due to swellling of the wood in winter means they cant be played in tune), and since you only know woodwinds, and really have no clue about brass, you are hear filling your winters with skiing.  Thats fine and all, but you should take it from me, that piano, which is the best brass instrument around, and it is played well into winter in many parts of the US, you dont really need to give up music for half the year as you currently think you have to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

See the point?

 

No?

 

Everything in red is BS strawman arugment, which does not depict reality, rather BtS's warped world view. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

I'm not saying that independent leg rotary isn't a perfectly valid way to approach things, but absolutely do not agree that it is universally understood as the better modern way.  This is also in line with the OP's question as to why some in PSIA have stopped using the word.  I'll say it again, they don't think of counter as something important that they need to proactively do, they just think of it is a somewhat irrelevant term which describes body position occasionally as their steer their legs around.

 

As to whether someone can stabilize their upper half with their inside leg, I will re-quote myself.

 

This appears to me a fairly 50/50 footed weight bias is being endorsed here.  I don't endorse that kind of skiing.  I much prefer outside ski dominance, which practically speaking removes the inside leg from any kind of upper half stabilization duties.  Not wanting to start a new debate here about which way is a better way to ski, just pointing out the disparity between different points of view.

 

I do not think it is universally accepted that outside ski dominance is over and two footed steering around is the new modern way.

 

I think its possible that the disappearance of the concept of proactive early counter is possibly associated directly with this trend by some within ski instructor circles to adopt more of an even footed, dual steered approach to skiing.

If there are any parts above, or lines you dont understand why they are strawmen, or falsehoods, just ask...happy to explain.


Edited by Skidude72 - 7/22/13 at 4:22pm
post #186 of 202

my dukes are not actually up against SkiDude or anyone SMJ..  I come with my opinions and try to defend them  SkiDude tends to make things personal a lot, particularly against me.  I try to get around and see if I can find a way to milk a productive discussion out of it, but after a point I have to just ignore it and focus on more productive discussion.

post #187 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

my dukes are not actually up against SkiDude or anyone SMJ..  I come with my opinions and try to defend them  SkiDude tends to make things personal a lot, particularly against me.  I try to get around and see if I can find a way to milk a productive discussion out of it, but after a point I have to just ignore it and focus on more productive discussion.


ROTF.gif  Yup.....biggrin.gif

 

 

There is nothing productive about putting false words in others mouths.  Or maybe I am wrong on that, maybe I need to be more open minded.

 

 

So tell me...what is the value of making up strawman arguments, and bogus thoughts on "what others think"?

 

popcorn.gif

post #188 of 202

skidude, I was talking about your comment to LF.  To say "you don't understand the topic" is not the same as saying "I know more about this than you do."

 

I play piano by the way.  I'm ice skating all summer.  

 

LiquidFeet is a serious student of the sport and deserves to be treated with respect as she shows to everyone on this board.

post #189 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

skidude, I was talking about your comment to LF.  To say "you don't understand the topic" is not the same as saying "I know more about this than you do."

 

I play piano by the way.  I'm ice skating all summer.  

 

LiquidFeet is a serious student of the sport and deserves to be treated with respect as she shows to everyone on this board.


So being she asked the question, I assumed (apparently wrongly) she didnt know the answer.  I guess this whole thread was nothing but a red herring.  icon13.gif

 

 

Glad to see you play piano...its my favorite brass instrument.

post #190 of 202
we all have our thoughts on this and other matters. i felt my posts were mostly in line with jasps, and now skidudes (though i may not have articulated as well) as for whether me and my mentor will continue to "teach" counter? you bet, though i believe, as do others here, it is largley an outcome...it is not an end in and of itself.
i think that mentioning that to certain students is important...

zenny
post #191 of 202
Thread Starter 

I do not know why in PSIA circles the word "counter" is a no-no.

I do know what it means, and how it is used differently in different contexts. 

 

Your thinking is getting sloppy, and your disapproval threshold is shrinking.  

How about taking a nice long break?

post #192 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


So being she asked the question, I assumed (apparently wrongly) she didnt know the answer.  I guess this whole thread was nothing but a red herring.  icon13.gif

 

 

Glad to see you play piano...its my favorite brass instrument.

 

Asking a question doesn't mean you don't understand the topic.  It can mean you're looking for other people's ideas.  And even if one doesn't "know the answer" it doesn't mean they don't understand the topic.

 

What you said was insulting to her, the only reason I chose to comment is in defense of a friend.

post #193 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

I do not know why in PSIA circles the word "counter" is a no-no.

I do know what it means, and how it is used differently in different contexts. 

 

Your thinking is getting sloppy, and your disapproval threshold is shrinking.  

How about taking a nice long break?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

 

Asking a question doesn't mean you don't understand the topic.  It can mean you're looking for other people's ideas.  And even if one doesn't "know the answer" it doesn't mean they don't understand the topic.

 

What you said was insulting to her, the only reason I chose to comment is in defense of a friend.

 

 

No worries.  Good luck to you both.

post #194 of 202

nothing here, move along.


Edited by SkiMangoJazz - 7/22/13 at 6:05pm
post #195 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

SMJ, I teach the movements but avoid labeling it until the cause / effect relationship is clearly understood. 

 

 

 

Now that ^^^^ I'd agree with.

post #196 of 202
touche

Edited by SkiMangoJazz - 7/22/13 at 6:04pm
post #197 of 202

I turn my back for one second and whamo!  What the heck?  Everyone get too much sun this weekend?

 

jasp - I see your point about not teaching "counter", though you recognize it happens.  I think this where "teach the audience you have" comes in.  Discussing counter too soon, can have people trying to achieve it the wrong way.  We can (if we chose) to teach how to ski so counter happens.  Sounds like the word isn't taboo as much as the consequence on not being fully understood and the ensuing train wreck isn't worth the risk.

 

LF - I don't know that "counter" is a taboo.  I honestly can't remember a discussion in a PSIA clinic on it but I remember in all of them being given drills so counter happened.  I'm thinking it was discussed at the PSIA Race clinic but that was almost all L3's and 2's in attendance.  Can't remember for sure but if it was, it sure wasn't a big deal.  I do know it has been discussed during instructor training at my home mountain.  I don't ever remember anyone there saying it is taboo. 

 

BTS - It could be the way each of us looks at things but I can't get my head wrapped around your reasoning.

 

Skidude - Thanks for reminding me about the two leg/one torso thing.  Can't believe I was forgetting it.

 

So.  Lets play nice and continue with the conversation after a visit to our "happy place".  I'm going to visit mine as soon as I hit send.  It's the fridge in the basement that has this in it -

 

 

Across the way is my ski tuning bench and some new tools.  Skis are all hanging up next to it.

 

Live is good,

 

Ken

post #198 of 202

if you're subscribed to a thread with email notifications epic emails you the contents of posts.  that's what I meant by I was emailed.  I read your post before you edited it because I got it in an email.

post #199 of 202

Nothing good ever comes from engaging with you, I don't know why I do it.  I apologize.  Not to you, but to myself for allowing myself to get involved.

post #200 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Nothing good ever comes from engaging with you, I don't know why I do it.  I apologize.  Not to you, but to myself for allowing myself to get involved.

Maybe you should look at that.  Nothing good comes of it for you...because your motives for engaging with me are never positive or genuine.  Karma.

post #201 of 202

tetonpowderjunkie

 

 

I made it easy for you, here is all my drivel from this thread.  Go at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 

 

Now Shoebag....  I don't even want to get started on some of the drivel you have written sense you first appeared on the board.  Again just my opinion and you are welcome to have yours.

 

 

 

Here is the only genuine attempt to actually answer the OP's question, suggesting that PSIA  does not wish to use HH popularized terminology. Edited to add that SkiMangoJazz also forwarded some interesting theories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoebag View Post

 

Because Harald does.

 

 

Asking the forum to get back on track after derailing the thread. What a waste of time that was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebag View Post

Back on track people.

 

The question isn't to debate the technicalities of countering, or not, there are hundreds of threads about that already. The question is why the term countering had become taboo in PISA vocabulary.

 

 

Don't like my analysis of Ligety's turns? Please correct my MA here, just don't tell me they are the "same".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebag View Post

 

I'm being analytical not critical. They are both amazing feats of athleticism, but there are clearly technical difference between the two turns. The first is a much better example of "countering" in it's various forms. IMESHO.

 

 

Maybe my analysis is too simple, I know how you guys like to complicate things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebag View Post

 

Using upper body rotation to end your turn is just as bad as using it to start your turn. The impetus to change edge should come from a flattening of the skis by unwieghting the inside leg, whilst the counter is held. The upper body in countered by resisting movement, not by actively creating it.

 

 

Calling out you for arrogance and rudeness, not just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebag View Post

 

 

I love this thread. A whole series of "masters" are quietly paying attention to us poor fools debating concepts above our station, just waiting to come in and save our ignorance, then to be trumped by another claiming even more superiority. Is there anyone else out there who want to stake his claim as the ultimate authority ? 

 

Holy ego trip Batman.

 

 

You are more than welcome to quote anything I've posted on this forum and criticism and corrections.

Edited by Shoebag - 7/22/13 at 7:15pm
post #202 of 202
Maybe we should start a new thread...
...we could call it u suck and ur even bad at that!
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