or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Does hand/arm position matter?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Does hand/arm position matter? - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 

 

One super-skinny kid., and still good hand discipline and angulation.   Differences in physique can lead to some slight differences in emphasis for technique, but does not change the laws of physics and does not change good technique overall.  Flailing is flailing.

 

I think this is where people get confused...it isnt "hand discipline" at all....he isnt "flailing" simply because he doesnt need to.  He doesnt need to because he skis in balance.  Fix the balance issues, and "hand discpline" will magically appear. 

post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

I think this is where people get confused...it isnt "hand discipline" at all....he isnt "flailing" simply because he doesnt need to.  He doesnt need to because he skis in balance.  Fix the balance issues, and "hand discpline" will magically appear. 

In terms of chicken and egg, I agree balance issues come first.  I'd asterix or note two exceptions:  one, when an active upper body is crudely effective but actively disruptive of the ability to stay balanced into the next turn (this includes some approaches  to freecarving) and, two, where using some drills asking for an artificially quiet upper body can then help to get the root balance issues better addressed. 

 

But yes, hand discipline can be a misleading label in terms of what it reflects.

post #33 of 49

What if we ask this question differently: can one ski with a quiet/disciplined upper body, but be imbalanced in the lower body? 

 

By extension, can quieting our upper body enable us to improve our ability to balance with the lower body? 

 

I have some thoughts, but want to put the question out there for other instructors to have a think on it.

post #34 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

What if we ask this question differently: can one ski with a quiet/disciplined upper body, but be imbalanced in the lower body? 

 

By extension, can quieting our upper body enable us to improve our ability to balance with the lower body? 

 

I have some thoughts, but want to put the question out there for other instructors to have a think on it.

Sure you could ski with a disciplined upper body and still be un balanced low down, to what degree of unbalance in the lower body though? Being aft or fore slightly from neutral can be seen as 'unbalanced'. After all who can say they are in perfect balance throughout the entire run? 

Yes quietening the upper body Can lead to an improvement in the lower body. BUT to how much degree, and what purpose would that have? For example, you have a client who is leaned back, calves in the back of the boot, hands by her side and rotating through the turns, we all know this picture...would getting her hands up help fix the calf in the boot issue? Yes.
Is that the most efficient way though of getting her centered? Probably not. Introducing her to the center of the foot, and reminding her of a centered mobile and athletic stance, feeling shin pressure and heel, or however you wish to phrase it, will give a better result, as you are targeting the CAUSE.

In summary, correcting someones hand position, to fix their lower body issues, in my opinion is symptomatic teaching. Great for quick results, but the likelihood of making and maintaining a concrete change is still limited. After all you can still be back seat, if your hands are up in front of you. 

My 2c.

Roland

post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

I have no doubt that after an hour and 20 minutes of frantic looking you can find a pic of a WCer sorta looking like you...only problem is the WCer is above the falline, you are past it, he is going very fast, you arent....etc etc.

Just Googled Ligety...these are the first images to come up....in almost all cases you can see angulation....stick with reality.




The only pic you'll find of Ted with the posture you describe is holding his skis in the finish corral...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

I think this is where people get confused...it isnt "hand discipline" at all....he isnt "flailing" simply because he doesnt need to.  He doesnt need to because he skis in balance.  Fix the balance issues, and "hand discpline" will magically appear. 

So... post up your fixes! Otherwise stop spewing antiquated MA analysis.
post #36 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

What if we ask this question differently: can one ski with a quiet/disciplined upper body, but be imbalanced in the lower body?

Yes - but not well.  One must be balanced in the whole body to ski well.  Since our upper body is supported on the lower body, the lower body must be correct, and thus is the better area to work on fixing.  I see lots of newer instructors have the discplined upper body, but be imbalanced in the lower - they look like robots.  Low performance, static skiing. 

 

They tend to be scared to move down below for fear it will throw off their static upper body....not a good trade off.  Hence they become "stuck" everywhere and become perenial blue groomer queens.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


By extension, can quieting our upper body enable us to improve our ability to balance with the lower body? 

 

Yes - there are some examples of where this might hold true...but very rare.  While its theorectically possible for a "wild upper body" to be throwing out a balanced lower body....I havent ever really seen it.  In almost all cases a wild upper body is compensating for something not right lower down.

post #37 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post


The only pic you'll find of Ted with the posture you describe is holding his skis in the finish corral...
So... post up your fixes! Otherwise stop spewing antiquated MA analysis.

I linked at least 13 pics with the posture I describe....th_dunno-1[1].gif  and to find them, I only needed to Google "Ligety"...they are first ones to appear....th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

I linked at least 13 pics with the posture I describe....th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif  and to find them, I only needed to Google "Ligety"...they are first ones to appear....th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif

 

 

Ligety often gets used as a textbook example of angulation.  icon14.gif

post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

I linked at least 13 pics with the posture I describe....th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif  and to find them, I only needed to Google "Ligety"...they are first ones to appear....th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif

Either post up something of yourself or move along....
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

What if we ask this question differently: can one ski with a quiet/disciplined upper body, but be imbalanced in the lower body? 

 

By extension, can quieting our upper body enable us to improve our ability to balance with the lower body? 

 

I have some thoughts, but want to put the question out there for other instructors to have a think on it.

1.  Yes.  Classic example:  selft-taught skiers who try the poles on hands, or hands in pockets, thing without addressing other issues.

 

2.  Yes. Drills that work on this both remove distractions, and also remove the effects of excessive upper body movement that can actively perturb balance. 

post #41 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post


Either post up something of yourself or move along....


I did.  Post #27 of this thread.  Please try harder to keep up.

post #42 of 49

Reading this thread and a cup of coffee got me thinking (and that hurts).  Arms help with balance, try doing much of anything athletic without being able to move them adaptively and you probably will diminish your ability.

 

 Has anybody done a drill with their arms secured to their sides?  I have not, it could be an interesting centering drill.  

post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


I did.  Post #27 of this thread.  Please try harder to keep up.

HeHe! You skiing!
Btw - you're welcome attempt keeping up with myself anytime!
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post

Reading this thread and a cup of coffee got me thinking (and that hurts).  Arms help with balance, try doing much of anything athletic without being able to move them adaptively and you probably will diminish your ability.

 

 


icon14.gif Exactley.  So if we need to make massive compensation moves with our arms on every turn, in basic conditions such as a blue groomer, (or even a green groomer such as the pic showed by Iriponsnow), then what chance have you got when the terrain gets more extreme?  None. 

 

Wild arms are a symptom, not a cause of poor balance.  As I wrote earlier, its why we teach the "arm position" we do, because from that postion we can move our arms up/down, in/out, front/back etc etc as required to compensate...this is natural, and part of good skiing.  But its the micro adjusting, or fine tuning....not the primary balance mechanism. Having said that, the micro adjusting is important, and thus we must enable it.

post #45 of 49

I'll keep it very simple this time and say it again.

 

Think of the arms as the pole used by high wire walkers.

 

While the pole is not required it does make it easier, the initial balance must come from the high wire walker and if its not there, than a fall occurs no matter the length of the pole. 

 

BTW Skidude72 well put, the arms are not the primary balance mechanism. icon14.gif

post #46 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post

Reading this thread and a cup of coffee got me thinking (and that hurts).  Arms help with balance, try doing much of anything athletic without being able to move them adaptively and you probably will diminish your ability.

 

 Has anybody done a drill with their arms secured to their sides?  I have not, it could be an interesting centering drill.  

 

Yes, in training last season we did an especially effective one.  I wouldn't force this on a client, however.

Place pole #1 horizontally behind waist, hook both elbows behind it.  Place pole #2 horizontally in front of hips, lower than the other pole, below your beer gut, and grab it with both hands. Yes you can!  Ski with whatever focus you are working on.

 

Your upper body does not want to twist at the waist, nor fold over forward, and your arms sure don't move.  If you are working on keeping your upper body upright while your legs incline, this exercise makes you aware of your upper body's verticality.   

 

You also immediately have proprioception of your state of balance without use of hands or arms.  Fix whatever you're working on, then free hands and arms for regular skiing.

post #47 of 49

After a certain threshold on the way to the "expert" level a skier starts to ski lower and closer to the snow. This forces to move arms where they are in a "conventional" position (forward and a bit to the sides while cruising at high speed or up front in the bumps in addition to more important plant timing) because there is no other way for hands to go. Also having hands forward and controlled helps to maintain balance.

post #48 of 49

 

I'd mentioned free-carving earlier in this context.  A couple of these guys have an "octopus" arm-wrap going on at the end of their turns, where the arms actually both get left behind on the inside of the old turn.  At its worst, where the shoulder and waist also get into it, this fault can almost make this "phantom foot carving," as opposed to freecarving.  Fixing the arm and shoulder fault there can directly improve the rest of the turn, and make it easier to freecarve in more-difficult conditions...but again, it is true that to really fix the arm and shoulder[s] you need generally to start with the hips.  This does go back again to SkiDude's point about hand discipline being misleading as a focus. 

post #49 of 49

Different context, but still a little euro-carvy.  I personally would classify this as an upper body drill, though ironically to me the quieting of the upper body comes from less angulation in this case, not more.  Because of the snow-touch, it may look like it promotes active arms, but look again, arms and hands are actually pretty quiet.  The point of this one is to get the skier more on the fast part of the ski (and damping down the angulation helps in this regard).

 

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Does hand/arm position matter?