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Tail washout, cause and fix? - Page 2

post #31 of 51
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post #32 of 51

Tails wash out,

 

Generally the cause of tail wash out is inadequate fore/aft pressure. If a skiers centre of balance is to far forward it there is not enough pressure to allow the edges of the tail of the ski to grip the snow. This also causes the skier rotational problems resulting in a downhill stem at the end of the turn. Tail washout..

 

The other side of the fence is too much pressure will cause the skis to break away also.

 

From another view of Lateral Balance and the skier is falling inside and crashing, a need to develop some progressive angulation could help in order to get the balance on the downhill ski and release it as required to the next turn.  Functional use of the joints.

 

If you fall inside to turn too early the skis can wash out and you could crash.

 

The Fix.. ( Some Drills)

 

Drag the downhill pole.

Tap the inside ski

One foot skiing

Pole plant with the elbow below the wrist.

 

Best of luck eh!!

post #33 of 51

Yes, keep them more or less the same distance from the snow! I think dragging both poles is better because it does keep your hands level and creates some angles as the turn is finished not to mention some upper body countering into the direction of the upcoming turn. Moreover, upper body rotation is eliminated which dragging the outside pole only can induce if one is not careful.

post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimidee33 View Post

Yes, keep them more or less the same distance from the snow! I think dragging both poles is better because it does keep your hands level and creates some angles as the turn is finished not to mention some upper body countering into the direction of the upcoming turn. Moreover, upper body rotation is eliminated which dragging the outside pole only can induce if one is not careful.

The above post was in reply to OP's post about keeping hands level. Meant to quote him. Also commenting on the outside pole dragging as a way to eliminate tails washing out.

post #35 of 51

JZ, try the pole drag while walking / running. Pay close attention to how your torso moves. Do your shoulders lean out more than when you ski? Do your hips drop inside the turn more than when you ski? Can you keep the pole tip on the ground without a lot of conscious effort? I would love to read what you experience and what feels similar / different. IMO, the best way to discover "WHY" is to change what you do and compare how each feels. In that way we can experiment with stance changes like FOM suggested without falling, or even skiing.

 

I suspect upper body discipline in all three planes is the root cause here and during the pole drag drill the pole serves as an anchor that restricts our RoM in all three of these planes. Excessive inclination, a strong upward projection of the torso, and poor fore / aft balance all are examples of possibilities and are quite frankly undisciplined core movements. Any of these three would make edge grip late in the turn difficult but knowing which one is the culprit without some active experimentation is impossible. Go outside and play with your poles and let me know what you discover.

post #36 of 51
since i cant give thumbs up feedback with my phone, here's a written one. nice post jasp!

zenny
post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

JZ, try the pole drag while walking / running. Pay close attention to how your torso moves. Do your shoulders lean out more than when you ski? Do your hips drop inside the turn more than when you ski? Can you keep the pole tip on the ground without a lot of conscious effort? I would love to read what you experience and what feels similar / different. IMO, the best way to discover "WHY" is to change what you do and compare how each feels. In that way we can experiment with stance changes like FOM suggested without falling, or even skiing.

 

I suspect upper body discipline in all three planes is the root cause here and during the pole drag drill the pole serves as an anchor that restricts our RoM in all three of these planes. Excessive inclination, a strong upward projection of the torso, and poor fore / aft balance all are examples of possibilities and are quite frankly undisciplined core movements. Any of these three would make edge grip late in the turn difficult but knowing which one is the culprit without some active experimentation is impossible. Go outside and play with your poles and let me know what you discover.

Yep!!!

 

The question is How much and where in the turn do you drag your pole? Both? or more pressure on the down hill one? And where should the tip of the dragged be in relation to the body? References?

post #38 of 51

See post 15 Tek.

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

JZ, it's not about level hands per se. It's about more upper body discipline and more accurate body movements. The pole drag restricts how much you move the torso and provides a clue to where you need to be moving it. In the context of your skiing level hands is a balance aid but as I mentioned earlier, focus on dragging the outside pole so the tip of that pole stays in front of your feet. When you can do that with some degree of accuracy we can move on and shift your focus to other things.

O.K. thanks for the direction. I believe dragging both poles helps to stabilize the upper body and position the shoulders level with the slope. Applying more resistance with your wrist on the downhill side and sweeping it forward as to mimic the pole plant action should help to over emphasis edging skills. But beware of the rotation monster or lack of counter rotation, but that's a whole other thread.

post #40 of 51

Tail washout, caused by steering with the bum and not the skis, several causes but the short version of it.  Generally wt back or to early shoulder rotation which gets the wt back.

 

One thing I won't forget as I always got a pole across the rear whenever I did it as a youngster (unfortunately they call that child abuse these days) wink.gif

post #41 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

JZ, try the pole drag while walking / running. Pay close attention to how your torso moves. Do your shoulders lean out more than when you ski? Do your hips drop inside the turn more than when you ski? Can you keep the pole tip on the ground without a lot of conscious effort? I would love to read what you experience and what feels similar / different. IMO, the best way to discover "WHY" is to change what you do and compare how each feels. In that way we can experiment with stance changes like FOM suggested without falling, or even skiing.

I suspect upper body discipline in all three planes is the root cause here and during the pole drag drill the pole serves as an anchor that restricts our RoM in all three of these planes. Excessive inclination, a strong upward projection of the torso, and poor fore / aft balance all are examples of possibilities and are quite frankly undisciplined core movements. Any of these three would make edge grip late in the turn difficult but knowing which one is the culprit without some active experimentation is impossible. Go outside and play with your poles and let me know what you discover.

I got around to try this, not sure how much it compares since I just lean into the curve when I run. So to answer the questions, when I ski, my shoulder lean out less due to angulation, but my hip drops inside more, since my legs are at a greater angle than when I run around a corner (if I reach down with my inside hands I could probably touch the snow during mid-turn).

The pole tip is harder to say, since I don't usually run/walk with poles so it feels strange. Subconsciously my hands want to be on the plane that is perpendicular to body core so the outside hand/pole raise. However if I consciously lower that hand I can drag pole tip. Not sure if that is a lot of effort, but I want to say no.
post #42 of 51

Wonderful news. It felt different but not difficult. That means the first step in this reprogramming progression is a success. Repeat the drill holding the poles six inches lower. Then repeat the drill holding the poles another six inches lower. The idea is to develop a keen awareness of what lateral body shaping you need to use to keep that pole tip on the ground.

post #43 of 51
Another good drill would be to lift your inside ski off the snow as you drag your pole.

Especially late in the day when those falls tend to occur.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 7/15/13 at 11:00pm
post #44 of 51
Thread Starter 
Thanks, definitely will add those drills during next season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post


Drag the downhill pole.
Tap the inside ski
One foot skiing
Pole plant with the elbow below the wrist.

Best of luck eh!!

By tap the ski, do you mean repeatedly lift and drop down the ski onto snow?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

since i cant give thumbs up feedback with my phone, here's a written one. nice post jasp!

zenny
Are you using the mobile site? I see a little thumb up icon under each post that I can tap on.
post #45 of 51

JZ, the tap the inside ski drill is predicated on holding that ski up off the snow. The ski makes contact with the ground but not in a way that would allow for more than brief contact before lifting it back up off the snow.

post #46 of 51
Thread Starter 
I see, does it work on different techniques compare to one footed skiing?
post #47 of 51
It is a variation of one footed skiing.
post #48 of 51
Thread Starter 
Nice, one more drill to try, wish the season is more than 3 months here so I have enough time.
post #49 of 51

If dealing with skiing withdrawal, stand in ski boots and skis and practice in front of a mirror.  Lift one ski, tap it down repeatedly.  Hold poles in the normal fashion but don't touch floor if you can avoid it.  Do squats on that stance foot for extra credit.   For extra extra credit, do this while watching The Blizzard of Ahhhhhs.

post #50 of 51
Thread Starter 
Haha, not that desperate yet. biggrin.gif
post #51 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

If dealing with skiing withdrawal, stand in ski boots and skis and practice in front of a mirror.  Lift one ski, tap it down repeatedly.  Hold poles in the normal fashion but don't touch floor if you can avoid it.  Do squats on that stance foot for extra credit.   For extra extra credit, do this while watching The Blizzard of Ahhhhhs.


You forgot the big fan and block of ice, LF.
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