I forgot a lot of what was said early in this thread, so I went back to take a look at some of the early pages. Below are selected quotes from @EdgeByter. After re-reading these, I have changed my mind. I do believe Edge is serious, and simply wants people to think about skiing from the tails. Edge, you need to put that GoPro on a friend's helmet during the daytime and have yourself filmed from the front, the side, and from behind as you ski down. I bet we'd all like to see you carving on the tails, doing quick carved turns the way you describe, doing some bumps, and those 360s would be cool too. Plus anything else you want to show us.
--I can ski forward and have pushed the limits that direction to such an extent I could grab my ski tips and ski (at least before I started wearing all the hip padding and my skis got shorter). I could even do 360's in that "dog" position. For those who try this (or think I'm making this up) the tricks are to start using a phantom move by diverging you inside tip and twisting it to edge it with your hand, and to lift your tips up off the snow with your hands before you make the edge change going backwards. Harder to lift one leg while doing it though, but even a Royal Dog 360 is possible.
--I find that when going faster and trying to turn quicker that a somewhat forward, shins on the cuffs position, is lacking in several respects and is much more likely to cause me to spin out, cross my tips, hook an edge, or have the skis slowed more by terrain and put me even further forward. All of which can quickly lead to a fall. I spend most of my easy cruising time in a pretty balanced position (for me anyhow, with my weight balanced pretty much over my ankles and just moving back and forth with the changing terrain). But when things get extreme I get my feet out in front of me. That works better for me then. I think I've figured out why too. I think more folks should try it, so I'm advocating for it.
--Actually, getting aft is easy, but pole plants angled forward from that aft position can keep you from getting too far forward again when the terrain is trying to take your feet out from under you as you ski over or through it.
--My number two goal is to turn quicker. The back and forth movement, like I've done for many years worked fine, but it is not as quick as staying in the back seat and bending the ski tails to carve a turn.
--I like the utter chaos of pushing the extremes, scrambling to survive, and learning how to recover when I go beyond my previous limits.
--Earlier I described skiing with my hands grabbing the ski tips (just not in the moguls). Is that far enough forward for you? You are correct, even though my dad had been a top downhill racer, I never got much direction from him other than: bend the knees, lean forward and rotate your upper body in the direction you plan to make the next turn (the typical Arlberg rotation technique of his time). I started skiing and was riding a bicycle several months before I turned three. Since I don't do any of what dad suggested (and have not for a very long time) so I guess you could say I am self taught. I have never paid for a ski lesson in my life, but I have worked as a ski instructor some, although I have never been certified. I've not seen many ski instructors who could ski anywhere near as fast, or in as rugged terrain, as I could so I never had much desire to imitate what they did.
--With good carving shaped skis the forward move to initiate the turn is no longer necessary like it was in straighter ski days. Therefore not making that forward move can make your turns happen more efficiently, quicker, and whenever you suddenly need them without having to make any preparation. Just suddenly throw your knees over the virtual hump to the other side while taking the pressure off them (down unweighting). This can happen so quickly that there is little down/up motions of the COM needed either. Once you are on the other edges and with the tails still pressured the tails track out wider than your boots and that initiates the turn. The pressure on the tails bends them (or even keeps them bent some during the cross-over) and you carve around that bend once you reach a higher edge angle. The only initiation needed is to release the pressure enough to whip your knees over as fast as you can (if you want a real quick turn--like a WC slalom skier in a flush) or not to such an extreme angle if you want a more gradual carved turn. Because your tails never leave the snow, the edges never have to re-engage with the snow as must happen when you move forward to lighten your tails to initiate the turn with your tips and then move back again to pressure them again to keep the tails from washing out. The entire turning process is streamlined and simplified. I call it the Rock-It Turn(TM) and the general rock back to pivot off the tails (which can be taught skiers that don't yet carve) that easily leads into carving like this the Rocking Chair Technique(TM) both because it is descriptive and is is so easy even us seniors can do it. A new skier can even do it while standing in one place or moving very slowly. It also prevent them from stemming the tails apart but those who already have been infected with stem turns are likely going to have some trouble transitioning to it if they try to start it from a position where both inside edges are weighted.
--The main reasons I think carved turns can be much quicker in the back seat is because: 1) you can bend the tail into a tighter arc (than you can bend the whole ski) when you use your boots high backs to lever back on the tails, 2) you are more willing to push your limits to turn sharper because if you screw up the turn it won't tighten up more on you (like when tips are weighted more) but rather your skis will naturally weather-vane to straighten out in the direction of your bodies momentum, so recovery is easy, 3) there is no time taken up shifting back and forth, 4) since you are hanging on your quads rather than stacked above the middle of the ski you can avoid having to move your CG up in order to bring your knees up and over during the cross-over because you are not directly above them, 5) your tails stay against the snow so they don't have to be re-engaged, 6) with your femurs nearly horizontal rotating them in the hip sockets drives the knees to the other side most efficiently, and possibly 7) you may be able to keep your skis tails bent by pressuring them throughout the cross over so they don't have to be re-bent again for the next turn.
--These turns can happen so fast that the only thing I can compare them to is a WC slalom racer snaking through a flush. These Rock-it(TM) turns are not just the fastest I personally can do they are at least close to as fast as I've ever seen anyone do on TV or video (and I don't think I've ever seen anyone make multiple turns this fast in person)..
--Ski Faster, Turn Quicker, Don't Fall(TM)
--I came up with the terms so I'm trademarking them to keep my options open. I've been in business a long time and know that when I start something that later becomes popular that one often gets ripped off and not even given the slightest credit for the idea. I'm also aware that when your ideas differ from what was the previously accepted norm it can take years for them to become the new norm even when they are clearly superior. My business has provided a comfortable retirement. I don't intend to profit from this and had planned to give away this information on the web if I ever get what I've written organized into a coherent form (not my forte). However, every time I try to do that I usually just get some more ideas and write more to have to try to organize later.
--While I've looked at the technique sections of over 60 skiing instruction books now to see if anyone "gets it" from my point of view I finally read Ron Leaster's "Ultimate Skiing". To my mind he seems correct about 95% of the time and it is the first book i've read that comes anywhere close to that. He does a great job of getting the description and analizing what is going on with what the best skiers do but I'm not sure that a new skier would be able to learn to ski using that text though. I'm throwing out some of my ideas here to see what instructors will have to say and what arguments I should counter in advance and which ones I might need to change my own thinking about as a result of the well reasoned feedback I get. I'd prefer not to have to eat my words later. Putting them on a website (rather than a book) means I could at least easily change them if I'm shown to be wrong.
--While I'm by no means advocating skiers always sit back, I'm just trying to get folks to see that there is a whole part of skiing that the prevailing dogma has kept them away from exploring. The prevailing dogma has improved a lot since I first became aware of it back in the 1960's but I think there is still a lot of dogma left that needs to be questioned. Glare ice seems to be the one condition where my basic technique of pressuring the tails more than the tips needs to be modified. If your edges at the tails don't hold then you are subject to spinning out. On ice I need to take a much more over the middle of the skis stance and be ready for the ski edges slipping sideways at any time.
--I'm not saying how anyone should ski, but since the back seat seems to be some sort of sin in most ski school dogma I may sound like I'm saying that is the only way to to ski, especially to someone projecting their own "there is only one right way and I know what it is" attitude on to me. I'm just trying to give the devil his due and open some skiers eyes to the fact that their are many different ways to ski and some work better sometimes and in some conditions than others do. For me they do anyhow.
And from the Hot Dog freestyle the old school thread, here you go, two very interesting posts from Edge.
http://www.epicski.com/t/23235/hot-dog-freestyle-the-old-school/. He was involved in the competitive Hot Dog events in the 70s:
---post #504: The Beconta Cup--World Super Hot Dog Championships were held in early March 1974. More specifically the Ballet finals were on Thursday 3/7/74, Aerial finals 3/8/74, and Moguls finals on 3/9/74. I don't recall if the qualifying event was held on the day of the ballet or on the day before. The qualifying was new to us and rather strange. The top 20 in each of the each disciplines preliminaries automatically qualified for the all three events.... I think this was the first national contest where the ski area decided who the judges would be. If I recall correctly Stein was head judge, maybe Tom Leroy was also a judge, and then the ski school luminaries at Park City at the time.
--post #644: The Ski Hall of Fame event was great fun and was also a milestone for me.
Edited by LiquidFeet - 6/17/14 at 5:33pm