Originally Posted by Jamt
What I miss in this thread is a concise description of what you are actually proposing. Most people around here don't believe in the always forward dogma. There are some pretty good reasons to be aft at some points and centered at others. Are you really suggesting that always aft is better than a more dynamic view on fore-aft balance?
I see little need to be forward. Centered can be good for straight running and for resting the thighs, among other things. Given good carving shaped skis, I'm suggesting that you no longer need the fore-aft motion to carve turns (like how I formerly carved skis when they had far less sidecut). The benefit is that carved turns can be quicker (and initiated quicker) because some of the moves (that were necessary with straighter skis--moving fore and aft for one) can be eliminated. I contend that this is more efficient and results in quicker possible turns (and a lot of other benefits, several of which you mention below). Unlike the guy in the video, I'm saying less is better, while he is adding an unneccessary further complication that delays his turning.
I was hijacked into being the founder of this thread from the Helluva's video thread (I think). I think I described what I was talking about and why I thought it worked better (fairly concisely anyway) at some point already. I'll try to look for it here or there.
Here are some reason why it can be good to finish aft:
--The concept of crossing paths. When the skis cross the path of the CoM the skis they kind of cut in front of the CoM if they are still edge locked. If you keep the skis engaged during this phase it is unavoidable they they are loaded aft. Basically it allows the skis to be engaged in a larger part of the turn and the float comes quite naturally.
Right On! While some are suggesting quick carved wiggles in the fall line are useless, I can stay on the tails longer and complete the end of any of those quick carved turns and suddenly shoot out about 30 feet to one side. I've learned to check over my shoulder before I do this because sometimes some idiot teenager seeing this old geezer skiing so fast, tries to purposely buzz me as close as possible and if I did this sudden lateral movement without looking back first, at the speed I'm travelling to one side I could put myself in his path before he could react and we both might die because he never considered I might be able to do just that, In fact, I really like to make that move and often follow a group of quick carved turns with it.
I'm not sure if I know what you mean by "the float".
--Faster turns. Since the aft state translates into inclinated CoM in the next turn it is quicker than beeing centered or forward. This true ONLY if you change the fore-aft state not if it is constantly aft.(Compare the two first points with the so-called X-move)
Why is this only true if you change the fore-aft state and in what way? Do you have to be forward or just make a change, such as from aft to further aft? By the "so called X-move" are you talking about crossing paths, as above, or is this something else? I'm unfamiliar with that term.
--Biomechanical reason. If you imagine a plane defined by three points, the center of the ankle, knee and hip joints respectively. The sideways bending moment in the knee is proportioanl to the distance of the force vector emanating from the ski and this plane. This means that if for example you are using pure knee angulation and the force vector passes through the hip and ankle there is no sideways bending moment. If you are very much forward towards the end of the turn, when the forces can build very quickly, it can be really bad for the knee.
I'm not following yor explanation above very well. With the last sentence are you refering to what I would call hooking the tips?
--Retraction. If you are using retraction to finish the turn it is quite natural that the pressure moves aft, since the knee moves forward when you start to retract. If you retract fast this does not matter because then there is no load and hence fore/aft is irrelevant. However, in racing it is quite common to flex a little towards the end of the turn and knee-angulate, in order to kick-start the vaulting effect. This is easier if you allow a little aft, and it can also be biomechanically sound for the above reason.
I have suggested that you can retract a lot further when you are aft because your hips are not in the way (as they are when forward). You can suck up lots bigger bumps this way too. By vaulting effect are you refering to what, in the recent video, Ted Ligety was by using his early edge change to push himself downhill? Or vaulting the virtual hump? Please elaborate.
--Bumps. This can be similar to the fore-aft shuffling you do in bumps (back-pedaling) but its a virtual bump. If you master it outside the bumps it comes quite naturally when you encounter real bumps.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fore-aft shuffling". Moving one foot at a time to go from fore to aft? Like what I called the "Face Saving Shuffle". My reflexes recently learned to do that when sticky snow suddenly throws me way too far forward. I don't see why you might need "fore-aft shuffling" in the bumps (at least if you keep your feet out in front of you to fend off the terrain like I do). Is that something you feel is necessary for skiing bumps? My understanding of the virtual bump is the retracting you must do to go from one turn to the next during the transition. Is that correct?
--Rotation state. Since the force from the ski is no longer aligned with the intertia force (CoM..) the rotational state will change, and this can be used to your advantage.
Do you mean like when I jet my skis ahead off the top of a mogul, skim it with my butt, while pivotting the skis across the fall line to hit the slush pile on the next mogul top with a hard edge set followed by the same thing in the opposite direction?
--Pivot. If you need to pivot more than the inherent pivot (the one caused by the two paths in a fast transition) before the next turn, e.g. to drop some speed or other reason. If you are aft towards the end of the previous turn a pivoting will turn this aft state into CoM inclination, i.e. you will engage the next turn much faster than if you pivot from a centered state.
As in "Faster turns" above? This sounds like how I make quick turns and high speed in the moguls.
--Reduce the skis self steering effect (helps the skis leave the old turn and go straight, reduces "augering" effects...which overall reduces braking effects....so its faster)
By "augering" I'm assuming you mean what I'd call hooking the tips. I think this is why pressuring your tails more than the tips just naturally leads to recoveries instead of spin-outs. The weathervane effect alligns your skis with the direction of your CoM automatically.
I'm not sure many on this thread have the understanding of the benefits of being aft (at least at times) that you have. Thank you for chiming in here this is much more like what I've been looking for from this group.