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So where is the shaping phase in different turns and why is it important? - Page 2

post #31 of 51

RISE LINE?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

post #32 of 51
Sorry but all of you are totally over thinking this.

Recently spent a day w some WC'ers & they don't consider 2% of this dialog.
post #33 of 51
I repeat on snow. wink.gif
post #34 of 51
What did he say??

So, they consider 98% of this dialog and the rest not?
post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

RISE LINE?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What about it?

post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

What about it?

Everyone has been talking about the fall line, but I submit, that is incorrect. The fall line is at or below the gate the rise line is at and above the gate.

 

If there is no gate then yes there is no rise line, but most if not all of this discussion has been in reference to a race course.

post #37 of 51
I know how did this become 98% about race turns? Interesting that the Rise line is the fall line just pointing up not down. It is really the "Rise Ray" not line. We speak of it when we cross it whereas the fall line in this context is referred to when the skis are parallel to it.

We could say "crossing the fall line directly above the gate" instead of "crossing the Rise Line".

The whole phases of the turn nomenclature I can't get all that interested in. Why would wcup racers care? Makes no difference. However what one does when and where is interesting and matters. One would presume they think about it. Otherwise what are they spending all that time at the top of the run visualizing. Katie Perry videos?
post #38 of 51
Thread Starter 
Yes the examples are racers. That does not mean the concept is limited to the race course. Line and how to ski it involves matching our actions to an intended result. Every turn we make, or want to make, requires us the make tactical choices. Conscious, or unconscious that happens. Teaching developing racers how to ski a more direct line verses a round high line includes the ability to place the shaping phase in different parts of the turn. This seems to be outside the scope of regular ski school programs. My intent was to suggest varying that placement is an area we should explore.
To this point it has been limited to comma shaped turns, but what about j shaped turns, z shaped turns? Round constant radius turns are a milestone but what exists beyond them? Variable radius turns.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/5/13 at 10:49am
post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I know how did this become 98% about race turns? Interesting that the Rise line is the fall line just pointing up not down. It is really the "Rise Ray" not line. Can you explain what you mean? We speak of it when we cross it whereas the fall line in this context is referred to when the skis are parallel to it.

We could say "crossing the fall line directly above the gate" instead of "crossing the Rise Line". Why would you want to do this? And directly above the gate is ambiguous. It matters not what line you are on, high,  low,  middle, extremely lo, really high,  the main pressure phase must start no sooner than the riseline.

The whole phases of the turn nomenclature I can't get all that interested in. Why would wcup racers care? Makes no difference. However what one does when and where is interesting and matters. One would presume they think about it. Otherwise what are they spending all that time at the top of the run visualizing. I assume they are visualizing the general course structure and unusual gate sets, (hairpins, delays, flushes, extreme offsets maybe blind gates nd so forth,  not visualizing exactly (microanalysis) of where they are going to be on each and every gate. Katie Perry videos? Hey don't pick on Katy, she LOOKS good!
post #40 of 51
Quote:

 

We could say "crossing the fall line directly above the gate" instead of "crossing the Rise Line". Why would you want to do this? And directly above the gate is ambiguous. It matters not what line you are on, high,  low,  middle, extremely lo, really high,  the main pressure phase must start no sooner than the riseline.

It's just geometry. A line is continuous with no beginning or end. A ray has a beginning and no end. Since the "Rise Line" starts at the gate and goes up the fall line not down, it's a ray. I'm not suggesting we change the wording at all, just clarifying.  Now "up the fall line" has to be shifted if the turn is a fall away. Let's just get it straight that the Rise Line is in fact the fall line starting at the gate. Yes?

 

 

Quote:
The whole phases of the turn nomenclature I can't get all that interested in. Why would wcup racers care? Makes no difference. However what one does when and where is interesting and matters. One would presume they think about it. Otherwise what are they spending all that time at the top of the run visualizing. I assume they are visualizing the general course structure and unusual gate sets, (hairpins, delays, flushes, extreme offsets maybe blind gates nd so forth,  not visualizing exactly (microanalysis) of where they are going to be on each and every gate.

 

That was just in response to irip's comments that wcup racers never think about any of this. - he didn't actually say it that way though.

And Picabo street was well known for running her entire course in her head and could come within a several seconds of her actual time.

post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

It's just geometry. A line is continuous with no beginning or end. A ray has a beginning and no end. Since the "Rise Line" starts at the gate and goes up the fall line not down, it's a ray. I'm not suggesting we change the wording at all, just clarifying.  Now "up the fall line" has to be shifted if the turn is a fall away. Let's just get it straight that the Rise Line is in fact the fall line starting at the gate. Yes? No,  it changes on each gate the rise line on one gate is not the rise line nor fall line on another gate. So it is only specific to the gate your are skiing to. So it is ray as you put it , but has no use nor purpose fro another gate. Can 2 gates by coincidence have the same rise line and fall line, of course it they are lined up that way, but that would only happen by accident except in a flush, or maybe hairpin?

 

 

 

That was just in response to irip's comments that wcup racers never think about any of this. - he didn't actually say it that way though.

And Picabo street was well known for running her entire course in her head and could come within a several seconds of her actual time.

post #42 of 51
Quote:

It's just geometry. A line is continuous with no beginning or end. A ray has a beginning and no end. Since the "Rise Line" starts at the gate and goes up the fall line not down, it's a ray. I'm not suggesting we change the wording at all, just clarifying.  Now "up the fall line" has to be shifted if the turn is a fall away. Let's just get it straight that the Rise Line is in fact the fall line starting at the gate. Yes? No,  it changes on each gate the rise line on one gate is not the rise line nor fall line on another gate. So it is only specific to the gate your are skiing to. So it is ray as you put it , but has no use nor purpose fro another gate. Can 2 gates by coincidence have the same rise line and fall line, of course it they are lined up that way, but that would only happen by accident except in a flush, or maybe hairpin? - Atomicman

 

 

Yes of course it starts at each gate.

So, you agree that the Rise Line is the fall line starting at each gate and going uphill. Just making sure we're not talking unicorns and dandelions.

 

Just want to make the point that there are fall lines everywhere, it is not one place.

When we speak of "in the fall line" for a turn, it's usually in retrospect, where you see the skis enter the fall line - point downhill.

If not in retrospect, it's essentially on your theoretical arc you're going to make when the skis head downhill. One could oddly, say if your EdgeByter, suddenly throw in a tail turn and thus the skis would enter "the fall line" earlier.

 

In this, note Arrow is downhill - ie the fall line.

Thus the skis "enter the fall line" at 8, 16 and 24.

 

500
 

post #43 of 51

Fall line is all about downhill though. I never think of the behind me

So I would change the arrow on the turquoise line to point down hill.

 

After all the word is FALL, can you fall uphill yeah, but fall line confers downhill thinking/movement

 

Rise line is the uphill line and that would have an arrow pointing uphill!

post #44 of 51

That arrow is pointing downhill. The skier photos make it confusing, but downhill is the top of the diagram.

 

Agree with fall line being "down", but it is a line so it's up and down.

If you're downhill coaching people telling them to "do short turns in the fall line" or some such thing, you're looking up the fall line watching them come down it.
 

post #45 of 51
Thread Starter 
So regardless of what you call it fall / rise, a variable radius turn requires shaping in different parts of the turn.
post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 the main pressure phase must start no sooner than the riseline.

IMO the value of the rise line concept is less now than it used to be in the non-carving era. In a carved turn the main pressure phase may start before the rise line.

post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

IMO the value of the rise line concept is less now than it used to be in the non-carving era. In a carved turn the main pressure phase may start before the rise line.

I can't agree. It may even be more important.

 

From US Ski Team training in 2010

 

We spent a lot of time this season focusing on tactics as we discovered that
some of the girl’s tactics were so bad that they couldn’t ski technically
well in the gates.  What we worked on was really quite simple in concept.
Give room at the gate.  If you watch the best skiers in the world in giant
slalom they are not bashing the panels.  If they touch them at all usually
it is very lightly.  The idea is to give the feet enough room off the panel
to allow clean passage by the gate without impeding the strong body
position.  Probably the number one issue across the country tactically is
pinching, or starting the turn too early
and crowding the gate.

To work on this we used two primary drills.  1st off in the prep period we
would set a brush corridor for both slalom and gs with the instructions of
do not begin the turn untill you cross the brush line, make the arc outside
of the brushes and be completely done with the turn as you cross the line
again going back into the corridor.
 Along with that, the goal was to be
fluid and move through transition and begin rolling the ski onto the new
edge but being patient to wait for the other side of the corridor before
pressuring the ski and allowing the tip to carve into the turn.

Secondly, we would paint blue lines in gs and slalom vertically above the
gate and below the gate.  While running the course the athletes were tasked
with waiting for the blue line before starting the turn and being
completely released off the outside ski as they crossed the blue line under
the gate.  These drills if done properly will help put the turn in the
correct place as well as provide space at the gate to be strong.

Along with the patience for the rise line, the concept of not skiing too
high of a line was critical.  On average most athletes seemed to be running
an entirely too high of line.  We tasked the athletes with pushing the line
down the hill and running a low apex as well as a direct line towards the
next rise line.  Just by playing with the line we would see variations of
up to 2 seconds in some athletes in a 40 second gs.  This was with the top
juniors in the country.  Proper tactics can singularly find the most time
for an athlete in a course.

post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

That arrow is pointing downhill. The skier photos make it confusing, but downhill is the top of the diagram.

 

Agree with fall line being "down", but it is a line so it's up and down.

If you're downhill coaching people telling them to "do short turns in the fall line" or some such thing, you're looking up the fall line watching them come down it.
 

Yeah that is confusing as hell. Those are some pretty sweet backwards turns! confused.gifGrreat for going backwards!

post #49 of 51
Thread Starter 
Thanks A-man. A second vector we used to talk about included turning your skis to face the outside panel of the next gate. the blue lines and stubbies are a great visual tool.
post #50 of 51
Tougher to do that these days as they don't seem to set outside panels most of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

IMO the value of the rise line concept is less now than it used to be in the non-carving era. In a carved turn the main pressure phase may start before the rise line.
So what cue are you using for them?
post #51 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Thanks A-man. A second vector we used to talk about included turning your skis to face the outside panel of the next gate. the blue lines and stubbies are a great visual tool.

beercheer.gif

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