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So where is the shaping phase in different turns and why is it important?

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 

After reading several threads where the location of strong shaping phase has been debated, it occurred to me that it depends on the intended outcome. For instance if the shaping phase is early, then the rest of the turn would probably include an opening radius. When would that sort of turn shape be desirable? When would it be a tactical error? What about when we move the shaping phase to the last third of a turn? Would that mean the turn shape becomes more fish hook shaped? When would that be a good tactical choice? How about the classic turn where the shaping phase occurs in the middle third of the turn? What tactical advantages exist for this turn and why do we tend to teach this type of turn so often?

USSA suggested a while back that the ability to change the location of the shaping phase is part of the shift away from the slow fast line and towards a more direct line. So it has been seen as a stage in a racer's development. Taking that a step further, is that skill important outside of the race arena? As instructors when would we introduce the idea and then how we would set up situations to feature comma and fish hook shaped turns?

post #2 of 51

MMMM! The shaping phase? IMO one could shape the arc as they wish given the skill and strength at any given moment.

Skill and Strength are the key words.....

 

It is important because you may have the skills but the forces you create are more than your physical strength. The result is skid. A balanced skid is a skill of it's own.

post #3 of 51
Thread Starter 
Actually, the idea is to offer tactical advice. When do each make sense.
post #4 of 51

For the benefit of those of us up North, can someone please describe each of the turn phases according to PSIA? 

post #5 of 51

I believe he is referring to the "Control Phase" or the "Pressure Phase" or "Phase 3".

post #6 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

For the benefit of those of us up North, can someone please describe each of the turn phases according to PSIA? 

Ya. How does the PSIA describe turn phases and how they relate to turn shaping?

The CSIA was big into teaching the turn phases but not sooo much these days. Not to say they are not used at all.

Basically.

Phase 1- Release to neutral

Phase 2- Neutral to fall line

Phase 3- Fall line to completion

 

The same goes for the CSCF. ( Canadian Ski Coaches Federation)

post #7 of 51

To add to the confusion, if I'm not mistaken, CSIA describes the turn from apex to apex and PSIA describes it transition to transition.

 

 

 

I think I prefer apex to apex but is could be my Canadian heritage coming through biggrin.gif

post #8 of 51

I prefer apex to apex. If someone is thinking too much about mechanics, many times they will have a dead spot at the completion. I would rather see a dead spot at apex than while traversing the hill. Gravity will force them to reduce the duration of the dead spot if it is in the fall line.

post #9 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

To add to the confusion, if I'm not mistaken, CSIA describes the turn from apex to apex and PSIA describes it transition to transition.

 

 

 

I think I prefer apex to apex but is could be my Canadian heritage coming through biggrin.gif

 

Not to be even more confusing. But, while on my last Level 4 CSIA course in Jan. 2013, the bigger guns where to quote " The true art of skiing happens from Fall line to Fall line"

I believe for instructional purposes breaking the movements down into segments gives a reference as to where one should be at that specific time. FREEZE FRAME.                                           The Video clearly demonstrates the flow of movements through out each phase. Thanks for that!!!

 

L&AirC could you please explain where the idea of apex to apex begins and starts.rolleyes.gif

post #10 of 51

In these videos it would sure help if they showed the skiers from the side (video camera moving along with skier).  

And then from the front.  Then from the back.  I guess that's too much to ask.

 

Often you can't tell when the skis are pointing down the fall line, when across the hill, and when somewhere in between.   The still shots at the end of the video match the idea of apex-to-apex.  The moving shots in the body of the video can be quite misleading since it's hard to tell when the skis are pointing down the fall line.  

post #11 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

 

Not to be even more confusing. But, while on my last Level 4 CSIA course in Jan. 2013, the bigger guns where to quote " The true art of skiing happens from Fall line to Fall line"

I believe for instructional purposes breaking the movements down into segments gives a reference as to where one should be at that specific time. FREEZE FRAME.                                           The Video clearly demonstrates the flow of movements through out each phase. Thanks for that!!!

 

L&AirC could you please explain where the idea of apex to apex begins and starts.rolleyes.gif

 

Well I looked at the video closer and it appears it is NOT apex to apex but just before transition to coming out of the turn.  It is hard for me to tell in the video because the still shots are from different angles:

 

 

 

To my inexperienced eyes, it looks like there is a phase missing.  I don't see phase 1 as the next step after phase 3.  Even accounting for them being in different directions.  Maybe I'm being too critical of it and if you focus on what the skier is doing in each phase of the turn and not where they are located it fits better.  At first glance I thought it was apex to apex but now see it to be post apex to apex. 

 

I would also add that neither skier looks to be in the fall line in phase 1 but the both are in phase 3.

post #12 of 51

CSIA Phases Explained -

 

First - it is not "apex to apex", nor is it "transition to transition". 

 

Second - it is the turn from start to finish from the perspective of the "skier"....not the "skis".  This may seem pedendatic, but its a critical distinction.

 

 

Phase 1 - Begins when we "release the body" from the turn and let it flow or begin moving into the new turn.  It is characterised when the skis begin to REDUCE edge angle.  This will typically be at some point after the fall-line.  Phase 1 ends at skis flat or "neutral".

 

Phase 2 - is "estabishing the platform".  It begins at skis flat, and ends when the skier has something stable to stand on.This phase is also known as the "intiation phase" for those who read RL.  Note the skier has not started to turn yet (to any appreciable amount)...the skier has only moved across the skis and gotten his mass forward in antcipation of the start of phase 3.  This phase is where the pivot or stivot will happen if there is one.  In the case of turns with some form of stivot this phase is longer...in pure arc to arc skiing particularily at the WC level, this phase is very short. 

 

Phase 3 - is where the skis turn the skier.  We can increase edge angle or manipulate fore/aft pressue here to "steer"....in more skidded turns we can also manipulate the steering anlge via pivoting.  Hence this is where we have alot of control over the shape of the turn, and since the skier is now being turned by the skis we feel the loads greatest here.  Hence this phase is also known as the "control phase" or "shaping phase" or "loading phase".  It ends once we have turned the mass as much as we require and release it to move into the new turn...where Phase 1 begins again.

 

 

 

Blue line is "skier", black is "skis"

 


Edited by Skidude72 - 6/1/13 at 2:32pm
post #13 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

The CSIA was big into teaching the turn phases but not sooo much these days. Not to say they are not used at all.

Basically.

Phase 1- Release to neutral

Phase 2- Neutral to fall line

Phase 3- Fall line to completion

 

The same goes for the CSCF. ( Canadian Ski Coaches Federation)

Sorry there L&AirC I have not heard of the a fourth or missing phase. Although one could move things around to make room for another phase if they like. How about micro phases in phases?       I think it best to keep it simple eh!! wink.gif

 

Thanks Skidude for your detailed explanation. I am with you there,

 

I still don't know where within the art of linking controlled arcs the Apex to Apex comes into play.

Does it really matter???

post #14 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

Sorry there L&AirC I have not heard of the a fourth or missing phase. Although one could move things around to make room for another phase if they like. How about micro phases in phases?       I think it best to keep it simple eh!! wink.gif

 

Thanks Skidude for your detailed explanation. I am with you there,

 

I still don't know where within the art of linking controlled arcs the Apex to Apex comes into play.

Does it really matter???

I dont think so...to me the point of the "apex to apex" is just as wrote above...to "think" of the turn that way, so we make the transtion is a continuous flow without a dead spot.

post #15 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

Sorry there L&AirC I have not heard of the a fourth or missing phase. Although one could move things around to make room for another phase if they like. How about micro phases in phases?       I think it best to keep it simple eh!! wink.gif

 

This is why I stated "...and if you focus on what the skier is doing in each phase of the turn and not where they are located it fits better." in my second post.  Goes along with what Skidude posted; it is the skier's perspective and not the skis.  And as SD said, it is critical to know that.

 

Thanks Skidude for your detailed explanation. I am with you there,

 

I still don't know where within the art of linking controlled arcs the Apex to Apex comes into play.

Does it really matter???

 

Fall line to fall line, apex to apex, gate to gate, even transition to transition.  Pick the one that fits in your head the best.  It is a matter of attitude like choosing to "go there" instead of "not going there".

 

You wrote:

 

Phase 1- Release to neutral

Phase 2- Neutral to fall line

Phase 3- Fall line to completion

 

Where is the next fall line?  Isn't it right before "Release"?

 

I think PSIA and CSIA are more similar than different.  The confusion comes from where we say the starting point is.

post #16 of 51

I don't have the technical manual here, but this is what I got online.

Little different, particularly in initiation - includes the edge change. I like the idea of a platform in csia's or skidudes description.

 

PSIA Three phases of a turn:


1. Initiation phase - This is where the turn begins.  The mass of the body moves over the skis and to the inside of the turn.  This involves changing the edge and shifting weight from one ski to the other. 
 

2. Shaping phase - The skier guides the skis through the apex of the turn and accelerates as skis begin to point downhill.  Many skiers try to get through the shaping phase too quickly in hopes of limiting acceleration.
 

3. Finishing phase - The skier completes the turn while simultaneously preparing for the next turn.  The edging of the skis and inclination of the body lessen as the skier allows the center of mass to come over the tops of the skis (or the skis to move under the skiers body)

post #17 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC

 

 

Where is the next fall line?  Isn't it right before "Release"?

 

I think PSIA and CSIA are more similar than different. 

 

As for the CSIA Turn Phases the fall line is in the belly of the arc. Or if you wish after neutral and Just Before Phase 3 or the loading stage. Or when the skis are pointed the most directly down the hill. It is at the end of Phase 2 and begins Phase 3.

 

Apex to Apex... I am thinking arc to arc.

post #18 of 51

I "think" this is pretty close if we are to mach up each others definitions.  It is only meant as a "ball park" sketch so don't give where the lines actually are in contrast to the others style too much thought.  I didn't.

 

post #19 of 51

Sure same stuff, just communicating with a different accent. Skiing is skiing eh!!!

 

Thanks for the drawing. I understand a little more of the PSIA's approach and terminology.

 

But not so much of this "  Mass still running more or less straight from Phase 1.

The COM begins to move away from the BOS in Phase 2. More Inclination in Phase 2. Then the angulation is applied though out the bottom of the arc to manage edge angles and pressure until released.

 

beercheer.gif

post #20 of 51
Thread Starter 
Fellas the shaping phase can happen prior to the fall line, near the fall line, or after the fall line. The manuals tend to talk about the last two a lot but in USSA RACING we talk about it being one of the three. As in there is a choice and the thread was my attempt to discuss the advantages of all three, it also would be fair to mention there are disadvantages for all three.

With that in mind, suppose we shape the turn before the fall line. Why would we do that and what sort of turn shape would that produce? What sort of turn would precede that turn?
post #21 of 51
I'll take a stab at it.

Prior to the fall line would be helpful on ice and I believe is the preferred method for carving on ice. Ice aside, a tactical advantage could be to (while racing) correct for having too low of a line. It helps with controlling speed and making sure you're on the right line for the next gate, like when the offset is severe.

Disadvantage is that if not needed, it could move your line too early and cause a double turn.
post #22 of 51

Shaping involves getting the skis to turn, either by engaging them in the snow surface and loading them so they will bend and turn themselves, or rotating them around with some skid angle involved.  

 

In a dynamic turn it's hard to load the skis above the fall line,  so in order to shape the turn up there you're going to be steering with muscular input.  Stivot, or pivot entry.

In a non-dynamic turn it's going to be the same.  Rotary input from the skier's muscles will primarily shape the part of the turn before the fall line.

post #23 of 51
Thread Starter 
Comma shaped turns. Do they require a stivot turn entry? My take is no. Big offset to a couple closed gates, or a flush come to mind. The idea being the strong dive into the fall line followed by a turn finish near the fall line. In the bumps, a double fall line would be another example.
post #24 of 51
Thread Starter 
An important idea here is where you project the core and how far across the hill the path of the feet goes. Turning uphill deflects the core across the hill as well. Imagine tramp man landing on that platform where the feet are uphill. Where would he go from there. Probably down the fall line.
post #25 of 51

Sooo. Entertain me please!  Where exactly in the arc or serious of arcs is the location of your idea of the fall line?

post #26 of 51
Thread Starter 

post #27 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Fellas the shaping phase can happen prior to the fall line, near the fall line, or after the fall line. The manuals tend to talk about the last two a lot but in USSA RACING we talk about it being one of the three. As in there is a choice and the thread was my attempt to discuss the advantages of all three, it also would be fair to mention there are disadvantages for all three.

With that in mind, suppose we shape the turn before the fall line. Why would we do that and what sort of turn shape would that produce? What sort of turn would precede that turn?

Early shape is fast, but will make the finishing part of the turn more difficult. It is kind of the Brachistochrone of skiing.

post #28 of 51

So let's say you dive hard and fast into the next turn, get skis up on edge very very very fast and have the shovels bearing the forces.  They bend hard and fast, and around you go, carving a turn at the minimum radius that ski will carve.  At the fall line you weight the entire ski so the tail won't skid out, and just beyond the fall line you lay off those edges, get a wee bit more aft, and allow the skis to straighten out and take off across the slope.  You've got your comma shaped turn.

 

Is this what you mean by shaping the turn before the fall line, jasp?

post #29 of 51
Thread Starter 

Here is another right turn where the finish will bring Ted across the hill more than what we saw in the first montage.  Tactically speaking when our line takes us further across the hill, the shaping phase must occur later. Something that occurs in the first left hand turns in each montage BTW.

 

LF, in this latest montage would you agree that the fall line is where his outside ski (L) is facing in the last frame?

 

I would call this a reaching turn and it shows Bob's tramp man idea in stop motion. Additionally, Ted lands and bends the skis but is he driving the tips, or bending the ski from the middle? The feet preceding the body into the turn suggests there is no time for him to move his core forward and the feet moving along their longer path allows his core to move back to center. So I would question if he is driving the tips to create the turn.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/3/13 at 12:29pm
post #30 of 51
Thread Starter 

Another left turn without much tip pressure...

1000


Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/3/13 at 8:23pm
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