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Do Ski Racers Cheat? - Page 2

post #31 of 51

I wouldn't say it is common, but there are stories of DIN settings mysteriously drop a notch or two or more. In a crowded corral full of nearly identical skis with people coming and going, easy to drop to a knee with a screwdriver and twist. Ballsy, stupid, immoral, and possibly illegal, absolutely. At the highest levels like WC where techs hover over their equipment, no, but in almost any other easy to do. People are crazy and there seems to be no depth to where they'll sink to get ahead, like knee-capping a figure skating competitor....

post #32 of 51

Yeah come to think of it; assault seems to be a time-honored cheat. Just look at recent NFL scandals and of course Tonya Harding. And I forgot that the American speed skating team just had a messing with opponents equipment scandal.  Thanks for answering.

post #33 of 51

ENDURANCE!!!!! Wengen is the longest WC downhill. Over 2 1/2 minutes. Top speed reached on the Hanneggschuss is about 100 MPH 2 minutes into the course

 

. Try skiing a WC downhill for 2 minutes and then hit 100 MPH in a tuck on a long straight and then another few turns after that.

 

And endurance is a big attribute to using PED's.  Why would anyone promote the racers to use PED's legally. It should stayed banned and I don't see any evidence of it running rampant in skiing or even being used at all. but obviously it is possible.

 

Bode's helmet looks the same size as when he began racing, nothing like Barry Bonds giant melon!biggrin.gif

 

Equipment timing and gates are all stringently controlled and checked. Gear at the start and finish,  athletes have no control over the timing and there are gate keepers on every course for just this purpose.

 

IMHO, no cheating going on in ski racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

I think the vast majority of people agree that not stabbing competitors is generally a good approach in skiing. It's not within the scope of the sport. I'd rather substantiate an argument that I actually believe holds merit within the confines of downhill skiing. Now if there were a critical mass of athletes stabbing each other in the sport, I'd say let's revisit this argument and find out ways to create stabbing-free and stabbing-enriched environments. But we're talking about "cheating" (which I think is mostly related to PEDs) in skiing. 

 

 

L&AirC, consider the case of two athletes who are equally skilled, and have an equivalent array of tactics at their disposal. One is stronger and can therefore leverage more force in turns. Who will win? You mean resist and deal better with more G forces, they can't put more force into the turn.

 

 


Edited by Atomicman - 5/24/13 at 4:39pm
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post

throwing up one's hands and saying we should allow it because we can't stop it makes as much sense as not trying to prosecute car thieves.

 

I'd say there's a significant difference. Car theft creates financial (and emotional) burden to the person being deprived of property. If we could make cars at zero cost, make them carbon neutral, and ensure they're produced in ethical working environments, there would be no more car thieves. (This is a solution I would definitely encourage. With the rise of 3D printers and the search for abundant, indefinitely renewable energy, I do hope that we're on a path to someday see this become reality.)

 

In an athletic competition, arguably a win is stolen through the use of PEDs. We can create as many "wins" as we feel like, since they aren't physical objects. That way, the natural competitors don't lose out to athletes taking performance enhancing drugs. I imagine one could even present a case that introducing a PED games would increase the sport's viewership overall.  

 

That said, "think of the children!" eek.gif (har)

 

 

 

Atomic: when I say the athlete can leverage more force in turns, I mean leverage in the sense of "to use a quality or advantage to gain a desired effect or result". i.e. the athlete can take advantage of more force in the turn in order to increase speed or steering angle, rather than having to dump, skid or otherwise avoid generating the force in the first place. 

post #35 of 51

Of course they cheat - that's the only reason  why they're faster than mewink.gif

post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post
 Kids everywhere are learning to cheat from their favorite stars.

 

I don't know about cheating in skiing, but kids don't just learn to cheat from their favorite stars.  I see clear examples in youth sports of coaches teaching kids to cheat and play dirty.  The coaches know that the refs and umpires are often volunteer or not super experienced, so they teach kids to push the envelope and do what they know is illegal since they so frequently get away with it.

post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurking4years View Post

Quote:
True enough, playing with someone else's equipment is not unheard of and relatively easy to do.

 

Zero Gravity and Ghost are you both serious to say that athletes mess with each other's equipment? Isn't this dangerous, almost criminally so? I'm in over my head here but couldn't a binding release on a downhill run possibly lead to a serious injury and if it did wouldn't causing it be battery?  

 

Sorry if I missed a joke.


It's no joke; it's just sad nonono2.gif, but it does happen.  Just because someone is a "good" athlete doesn't make them a "good" person.frown.gif

post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

In an athletic competition, arguably a win is stolen through the use of PEDs. We can create as many "wins" as we feel like, since they aren't physical objects. That way, the natural competitors don't lose out to athletes taking performance enhancing drugs. I imagine one could even present a case that introducing a PED games would increase the sport's viewership overall.  

 

 

We however, cannot produce as many sponsors or as much purse money as we want and that is a big part of the "win." I would absolutely agree that more people would watch if you allowed PEDs at least initially.

post #39 of 51

I don't really know much about PEDs and doping. But if PEDs do help to increase an athlete's strength and endurance, then I could see why skiers would use them. In the cycling world Floyd Landis was known for his killer workouts. It turned out that he (and the rest of the US Postal team) were using PEDs and blood doping. There are ski racers who seem to work out harder than their competitors. Sometimes I wonder where they are getting the strength and endurance to do so. There has to be a reason why they are so much stronger and have more endurance. All of the top-level ski racers obviously have natural talent, and they have nurtured that talent through good coaching and hard work. But there are those at the very top who seem to be so much stronger than the others and it does make me wonder if there is PED usage going on. As we know from Lance Armstrong, Marion Jones, and Barry Bonds, just because someone never tested positive does not mean that he or she is truly clean. 

post #40 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyymc View Post

 

I don't know about cheating in skiing, but kids don't just learn to cheat from their favorite stars.  I see clear examples in youth sports of coaches teaching kids to cheat and play dirty.  The coaches know that the refs and umpires are often volunteer or not super experienced, so they teach kids to push the envelope and do what they know is illegal since they so frequently get away with it.

I see examples of that every week with Little League catchers told to "frame" the ball after a pitch is caught so the 12-16 year old ump will call it a strike (among other stuff),  having soccer players being told to grab against a better team to test the officials, etc.  Youth football?  My then 10-year old was once on a team where a coach taught the kids how to chop block at the end of the season.  My kid and I were so disgusted we never came back.  

post #41 of 51

Interesting thread.

 

Quote:

In an athletic competition, arguably a win is stolen through the use of PEDs. We can create as many "wins" as we feel like, since they aren't physical objects. That way, the natural competitors don't lose out to athletes taking performance enhancing drugs. I imagine one could even present a case that introducing a PED games would increase the sport's viewership overall.  

 

That said, "think of the children!" eek.gif (har)

 

Problems:

 

1) If the road to prize money/fame/etc. is in the "PED League", then you end up pushing all competitive athletes to do things that will be destructive to their long-term health to win.  It's one thing if you have highly paid professional adult athletes making these choices.  But if the only way into the pro leagues is for high school and college kids to do the same, then IMO you're creating an even worse problem than you had to begin with.

 

2) If the "PED League" is seen as a joke (like, for example, the ill-conceived XFL), you'll still have the exact same problem.  People will try to cheat however they can in the "Clean League" because that's where the money/prestige is.

post #42 of 51

Well, I read the whole thread and didn't see one good way to cheat described.

 

I am  .  .  .  disappointed.

 

post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post

Well, I read the whole thread and didn't see one good way to cheat described.

 

I am  .  .  .  disappointed.

 

 

You could always get "cheater" skis.

post #44 of 51

Am I the only one who sees the terms "winner" and "cheater" as being mutually exclusive of one another?  

 

You can't be both.  If you cheat to win, you're still just a loser to me.  

post #45 of 51

I can't remember who, but somebody once said "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough".

 

 

Every single person out there is looking for an edge over their competition.  It doesn't matter if it's ski racing or hockey or NASCAR.  Everybody is looking for an edge, and usually that means skirting the rules or using a new substance/material/method that the opposition hasn't figured out yet.

 

 

There is cheating in every sport.

post #46 of 51

I think in every sport there is some form of cheating going on from the athletes to the officials.

 

Additionally, any good athlete or official does at some point learn to cheat (and would recommend that if they don't know learn fast).  Once you know how to cheat you can avoid being cheated as you should also learn what the appropriate defenses are to those methods.

 

I have been a high enough level athlete in other sports to compete in WC's and am now a high enough official in another sport that is obvious that it does occur on more regular basis than people would think.  My advise is learn all the cheats and hopefully you can avoid being cheated in the sports you participate in. 

 

Please understand that I don't support cheating in any format, but it does happen and knowing how defend oneself against is just as important when you are looking to get to the top.  The real question comes down to personal ethics of the individual whether or not they cheat.  Unfortunately, some will do anything to win or help a friend win.

post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post

I see examples of that every week with Little League catchers told to "frame" the ball after a pitch is caught so the 12-16 year old ump will call it a strike (among other stuff),  having soccer players being told to grab against a better team to test the officials, etc.  Youth football?  My then 10-year old was once on a team where a coach taught the kids how to chop block at the end of the season.  My kid and I were so disgusted we never came back.  

 

As your examples show, it's quite the continuum. Framing the ball vs chop blocking ... I've never totally figured it out. Where is the line? Surely it isn't right AT the letter of the law. So you take 4 extra feet on a soccer throw in ... is that cheating? Some refs call it, most don't.

 

So you take what the ref gives you, right? My daughter plays a 3v3 team every summer that makes me sick ... they foul any player who has a free line to the goal (no goalies in 3v3, small nets). They get called, but it allows them to get back and set up a defense, so the scoring opportunity is denied. They are totally coached to do this, and it is so frustrating. There are no penalties for persistent encroachment, at least none are called -- I tried to ask an official about it, but of course I came off looking like a bad loser, and still didn't get an answer. It is within the letter of the law, but it is completely against the spirit of the game. In basketball you would foul out, in hockey you would have to play a man down ... in 3v3 soccer, you get to regroup against a free kick, which means you are able to block the goal that you were unable to defend 5 seconds before.

 

And let's not even get into junior tennis, where there are no referees. I think it's one of the biggest reasons I didn't encourage my children to play more seriously. They play during summers,  but that is one scary pit of horribleness, at times. 

post #48 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

 

As your examples show, it's quite the continuum. Framing the ball vs chop blocking ... I've never totally figured it out. Where is the line? Surely it isn't right AT the letter of the law. So you take 4 extra feet on a soccer throw in ... is that cheating? Some refs call it, most don't.

 

So you take what the ref gives you, right? My daughter plays a 3v3 team every summer that makes me sick ... they foul any player who has a free line to the goal (no goalies in 3v3, small nets). They get called, but it allows them to get back and set up a defense, so the scoring opportunity is denied. They are totally coached to do this, and it is so frustrating. There are no penalties for persistent encroachment, at least none are called -- I tried to ask an official about it, but of course I came off looking like a bad loser, and still didn't get an answer. It is within the letter of the law, but it is completely against the spirit of the game. In basketball you would foul out, in hockey you would have to play a man down ... in 3v3 soccer, you get to regroup against a free kick, which means you are able to block the goal that you were unable to defend 5 seconds before.

 

And let's not even get into junior tennis, where there are no referees. I think it's one of the biggest reasons I didn't encourage my children to play more seriously. They play during summers,  but that is one scary pit of horribleness, at times. 

This is getting off the OP, but each sport has written and unwritten rules about what is "fair."  Golf is one of the few games where you are expected to call a penalty against yourself at every level, and that is taught in youth golf everywhere (e.g., programs like The First Tee).  In baseball it is OK to throw at a batter in retaliation, but only at a higher level.  In baseball adults can cause damage to each other, but kids can't.  Most soccer teams above a U-13 level have a player who could probably win an Academy Award.  If you are going down because of a trip, most coaches want to make sure the ref sees it.

 

 I see several problems creating ethical misconduct in youth sports.  Among them are: 1) Most coaches, volunteer and paid,  are under pressure to win.; 2) Many volunteer youth coaches are seriously into "Daddy -Ball" in an effort to get their own kids scholarships or at least advancement into high school sports.  Others see this and figure they must "do what I have to do.";  3) The lack of ethical conduct in sports is institutionalized, giving kids the incentive to act like the pros who regularly cheat; 4) Misconduct is actually a good strategy when trying to win (assuming winning is the main goal) in certain situations.  An example is never letting a basketball player have an easy layup when your team has fouls to give,  hammering the opposing player as hard as a player can get away with without creating a technical foul.; and 5) Penalties are not harsh enough to prevent misconduct.

 

Ski racing is cool because the other racers appreciate a good performance by a competitor. 

 

I haven't figured out what is "fair" or ethical in NASCAR racing yet, which is probably why I don't watch it more than once or twice a year on average (if that).  That sport seems like the chariot race in Ben Hur but with cars. 

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Work View Post

Am I the only one who sees the terms "winner" and "cheater" as being mutually exclusive of one another?  

 

You can't be both.  If you cheat to win, you're still just a loser to me.  

Hey, those skis you're on are called "cheaters" by some. wink.gif For a brief time, they used to be known as cheaters. Then everyone started doing better on them and winning races and says, "I like these things, it's not cheating".

 

Did Bode "cheat" when he used K2 Fours at the 1996 Junior Nationals? No one else, (I think), was on them.
 

Retired baseball players acting all holier than thou and squawking about peds really cracks me up.

A lot of those guys were chowing amphetamines like cracker jacks back in the 70's, 80's.

 

Plus, "framing the baseball" by a catcher = cheating?

 

Then there's the weird stuff. Tonya Harding and ex husbad Jeff Gillooly hire someone to break Nancy Kerrigan's leg before the1994 US Figure Skating Championships in Detroit (just asking for trouble there..)

(Odder still: She later took up boxing, defeating Paula Jones of Clinton Impeachment fame in 2002 in a Fox Celebrity boxing event)

 

post #50 of 51

I was expecting something ingenious in this thread, to be honest.  Something like this (Soapbox Derby). You know, where someone puts serious effort into cheating, with effective results.  Of course, if they never get caught, we never hear about it.

 

 

In 1973, 14 year old Jimmy Gronen of Boulder, CO was stripped of his title two days after winning the national race. Suspicions were running high even before the finals, and Gronen was actually booed by many spectators.

The unusual dimensions of Gronen's margins of victory and heat times tipped off derby officials to illegal circumstances surrounding Gronen's racer. Subsequent X-ray examination of his car revealed an electromagnet in the nose. When activated at the starting line, the electromagnet would pull the car forward by attracting it to the steel paddle used to start the race. Gronen would activate the electromagnet by leaning his helmet against the backrest of his seat, which activated its power source. This became very evident as Gronen's heat times progressively slowed down as the race wore on, because the electromagnet lost strength each time it was activated. Usually, heat times get faster each time a racer completes a heat. Videotape of the race also showed a suspiciously sudden lead for Gronen just a few feet after each heat began. The margin of victory for a race heat will normally be no more than 1 to 3 feet. Gronen's early heat victories were in the 20 to 30 feet range. (Aluminum insulator plates were added to the starting ramps in 1974 to render an electromagnetic system useless.)

Midway through the 1973 race, Derby officials also replaced Gronen's wheels after chemicals were found to be applied to the wheels' rubber. The chemicals caused the tire rubber to swell, which reduced the rolling resistance of the tire.

In the final heat, Gronen finished narrowly ahead of Bret Yarborough. Within two days, Yarborough was declared the 1973 champion.

Gronen's uncle and legal guardian at the time, wealthy engineer Robert Lange, was indicted for contributing to the delinquency of a minor and paid a $2,000 settlement.

Lange's son, Bob Lange Jr. (and Jimmy Gronen's cousin) had won the previous 1972 Derby using a car considered to be indistinguishable from the vehicle used by Gronen. Boulder, Colorado was also banned from any future participation in the All-American Soap Box Derby.

 

 

Wow, banned the entire city of Boulder, CO.  Obviously they've never recovered from the blow.....

 

 

PS.   If the name Bob Lange sounds familiar ... think ski boots.

post #51 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post

This is getting off the OP, but each sport has written and unwritten rules about what is "fair."  Golf is one of the few games where you are expected to call a penalty against yourself at every level, and that is taught in youth golf everywhere (e.g., programs like The First Tee). ....

 

Yes, that's true ... it does seem like it would be way more difficult to cheat in timed sports, where subjectivity and chaos isn't like it is in other types of competition. But ... one of the reasons to play is to learn about real life, and that's just part of it. Someone is always trying to get ahead, one way or the other...

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