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How would you define an intermediate or advanced skiier? - Page 4

post #91 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post


Good point, Kevin--you're right.

But perhaps, in the interest of staying true to the basic universal and "official" definition of black diamond as "most difficult," we should quibble with the phrasing. If black diamond means most difficult, then "easy black run" means "easy most difficult run"--a literal self-contradiction and oxymoron if there is one!

You're right though, of course, that black diamond difficulty encompasses a wide spectrum, both within a ski area, and even moreso, from one ski area to another. So it is a very reasonable for someone trying to become familiar with a new resort to want to know where to find the least or most challenging runs within that spectrum. Asking "how do I get to the least challenging black run?" would get the point across, while eliminating the oxymoron that there should be any such thing as an easy difficult run.

There are also things like "steepest green run"--which may be of critical importance for beginning skiers to know! (Hint: if you can just survive the steepest parts of "Schoolmarm," you might want to hold off a bit before you tackle Snowbird's Big Emma!)

But how would you describe the "most intermediate blue run"? How about "Extremely intermediate?

wink.gif

 

Well, the "most intermediate blue run" is the extraordinary one.  Extraordinary = extra ordinary = extremely normal.  biggrin.gif  Gotta love the English language.

post #92 of 116

Let's stick to colors, someone should write a book, 50 shades of blue.

 

Easy intermediate trail = Pale Lapis

intermediate trail= Blue

Difficult intermediate trail= Purple

 

When we were talking about plateaus, I thought that at some point on the way from intermediate to advanced/expert, equipment, particularly boots, could be a reason to hit a plateau?

post #93 of 116

I can't describe and intermediate or advance skier, but I know one when I see one.

post #94 of 116

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post

Let's stick to colors, someone should write a book, 50 shades of blue.

 

Easy intermediate trail = Pale Lapis

intermediate trail= Blue

Difficult intermediate trail= Purple

 

But, but but ....a Ford Fairmont blue at Snowbird is So Much Harder than a robin's egg at Stratton!    Wah!

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy View PostWhen we were talking about plateaus, I thought that at some point on the way from intermediate to advanced/expert, equipment, particularly boots, could be a reason to hit a plateau?

 

Why start there? 

 

  Why not also look at bad boots or "they're good enough for a beginner"/craigslist special boots and how they hinder learning at beginner -to-intermediate stages?

post #95 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post

Let's stick to colors, someone should write a book, 50 shades of blue.

 

Easy intermediate trail = Pale Lapis

intermediate trail= Blue

Difficult intermediate trail= Purple

 

When we were talking about plateaus, I thought that at some point on the way from intermediate to advanced/expert, equipment, particularly boots, could be a reason to hit a plateau?

Color blind skiers won't like that at all eek.gif.

 

How about just rewrite the definitions?  You pick the wording but here is the thought.

 

Green = Easiest.

Blue = Moderate.

Black = Difficult.

Double Black = More Difficult.

Skull and Crossed Bones = You could become Fertilizer.

 

Ratings will pretty much always lay in the hands of the ski areas; the less money they have to spend the more they like it.  

 

---------------------------

 

On the groomed black thing, why not?  I like an area that will or can groom part of a run and leave the sides natural .  Aspiring skiers will always get themselves where they way outside of their comfort zones.  This leaves a bailout, or a place for less the adventurous to share more of the mountain.  They can still be a real Black; case in point Grizzly Downhill a Snowbasin.  

post #96 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post

When we were talking about plateaus, I thought that at some point on the way from intermediate to advanced/expert, equipment, particularly boots, could be a reason to hit a plateau?

That's what I was suggesting earlier, in different way. I think it takes the tactics, experience, and threshold percentage of total neural connections devoted purely to skiing to overcome gear deficiencies. The problem is that this excess of neural connections has a dedicated gear wall that comes with its own unique financial and commitment model - it prevents you from having gear deficiencies in exchange for being able to carry on a normal emotional life focused on (at least a few) other things like your kids, car, and snow tires.

[Edit: the car and snow tires are on the gear wall. Ok, your spouse then. Or is a skiing partner also part of the gear wall? It is complicated.]

I don't think one can 'think like an expert' unless skiing has completely pushed out other thoughts, like say keeping a balanced household budget or actually checking your mailbox at all when temps are below 50 degrees ( Celsius works fine here if you want ).

I would say that gear deficiencies are more reflective of a plateau than a causative factor. You don't really want to be an advanced skier if your boots don't fit, it's just a built in excuse as to why you aren't. 'My feet hurt' has been used for far lesser things...
Edited by NayBreak - 5/22/13 at 1:27pm
post #97 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post


That's what I was suggesting earlier, in different way. I think it takes the tactics, experience, and threshold percentage of total neural connections devoted purely to skiing to overcome gear deficiencies. The problem is that this excess of neural connections has a dedicated gear wall that comes with its own unique financial and commitment model - it prevents you from having gear deficiencies in exchange for being able to carry on a normal emotional life focused on (at least a few) other things like your kids, car, and snow tires.

[Edit: the car and snow tires are on the gear wall. Ok, your spouse then. Or is a skiing partner also part of the gear wall? It is complicated.]

I don't think one can 'think like an expert' unless skiing has completely pushed out other thoughts, like say keeping a balanced household budget or actually checking your mailbox at all when temps are below 50 degrees ( Celsius works fine here if you want ).

I would say that gear deficiencies are more reflective of a plateau than a causative factor. You don't really want to be an advanced skier if your boots don't fit, it's just a built in excuse as to why you aren't. 'My feet hurt' has been used for far lesser things...

 

My brain hurts - plateau or no?

post #98 of 116

Haha i'm thinking about that someone who has gotten beyond rental boots and might have a pair of boots that don't fit, usually "a little" too big. A strong, athletic skier can overcome loose shoes or alignment problems, to a point. Intermediate Plateau?

post #99 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post
 
Well, the "most intermediate blue run" is the extraordinary one.  Extraordinary = extra ordinary = extremely normal.  biggrin.gif  Gotta love the English language.

 

Cute. To make proper sense of the word "extraordinary" you need to read the "extra" piece as meaning "out of" as in "extracurricular". If you already knew that, as I expect you did, you're playing games. (I almost wrote, "'just' playing games, but then realized there was no call to be pejorative about playing games. smile.gif)

post #100 of 116

I did understand the post as you say you meant it,  and I seriously think that restricting the general concept of 'plateau' to  the one we find most common  is doing a disservice to not-quite-as-strong, not-quite-as-ready-to-cope-with-anything  beginner skiers.    Who might have had the same enthusiasm as the fit athlete to start but then faced a long and unrewarding climb.     Those skiers are on a plateau also.    Granted, a plateau that looks more like Eastern Colorado than one that looks like the Altiplano, but a plateau nevertheless. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post

Haha i'm thinking about that someone who has gotten beyond rental boots and might have a pair of boots that don't fit, usually "a little" too big. A strong, athletic skier can overcome loose shoes or alignment problems, to a point. Intermediate Plateau?

post #101 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post

Haha i'm thinking about that someone who has gotten beyond rental boots and might have a pair of boots that don't fit, usually "a little" too big. A strong, athletic skier can overcome loose shoes or alignment problems, to a point. Intermediate Plateau?

I was skiing with my son at Squaw two seasons ago on a particularly nasty icy rocky narrow WROD on Red Dog.  He skied perfectly well and twice as fast as me all day before he noticed he had forgotten to buckle his boots. (Sorry for the bragging, but those are my wife's genes, not mine.)

post #102 of 116

I tend to like the notion that ability definitions and standards are native to particular resorts.  An average advanced skier at Cloudmont would likely be more of an intermediate at Whistlerspit.gif  Can a skier really be an "expert" if they haven't had access to any real difficult expert terrain?  Or, can they be considered an "expert"  (or intermediate, advanced, etc) on the terrain available to them in comparison to others at that same resort?  I believe they can/are.

post #103 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

I did understand the post as you say you meant it,  and I seriously think that restricting the general concept of 'plateau' to  the one we find most common  is doing a disservice to not-quite-as-strong, not-quite-as-ready-to-cope-with-anything  beginner skiers.    Who might have had the same enthusiasm as the fit athlete to start but then faced a long and unrewarding climb.     Those skiers are on a plateau also.    Granted, a plateau that looks more like Eastern Colorado than one that looks like the Altiplano, but a plateau nevertheless. 

Change the bold above to rewarding and it isn't a plateau. Traversing is usually part of ascent.
post #104 of 116

id define an advanced skier as someone who can handle anything inbounds on the mountain
 

post #105 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevez33 View Post

id define an advanced skier as someone who can handle anything inbounds on the mountain
 


My son can powerwedge and link a couple turns avoiding collisions with others down everything in bounds at some of the mellower resorts we go to.  I wouldn't consider him anywhere near "advanced" yet. 

post #106 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

I did understand the post as you say you meant it,  and I seriously think that restricting the general concept of 'plateau' to  the one we find most common  is doing a disservice to not-quite-as-strong, not-quite-as-ready-to-cope-with-anything  beginner skiers.    Who might have had the same enthusiasm as the fit athlete to start but then faced a long and unrewarding climb.     Those skiers are on a plateau also.    Granted, a plateau that looks more like Eastern Colorado than one that looks like the Altiplano, but a plateau nevertheless. 

 

Nice. Both plateaus are slightly tilted though. It takes a while to get from eastern CO to the heights of Bolivia, but the trip is worth it. 

post #107 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevez33 View Post

id define an advanced skier as someone who can handle anything inbounds on the mountain
 


My son can powerwedge and link a couple turns avoiding collisions with others down everything in bounds at some of the mellower resorts we go to.  I wouldn't consider him anywhere near "advanced" yet. 

 

Exactly. We're back around to the beginning of the thread again. It all depends on how you define "handle." Even the "I know it when I see it" test falls down fatally, because observers come in many flavors of being ignorant or misinformed. They thus often identify as models people whose skiing I wouldn't want anybody to imitate. I encounter this frequently in the chairlift.

post #108 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevez33 View Post

id define an advanced skier as someone who can handle anything inbounds on the mountain
 

 

Ever been to Jackson Hole, Squaw, Whistler or Snowbird?  There's some pretty crazy stuff inbounds.  Your definition sounds more like an expert, although I'd still say there's plenty of inbounds terrain that not all experts can / will ski.

post #109 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevez33 View Post

id define an advanced skier as someone who can handle anything inbounds on the mountain

 

Boyne Mtn, or Big Sky? smile.gif

Honestly, if it sounds like I care about any of this, don't get me wrong, I don't.smile.gif
post #110 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

I did understand the post as you say you meant it,  and I seriously think that restricting the general concept of 'plateau' to  the one we find most common  is doing a disservice to not-quite-as-strong, not-quite-as-ready-to-cope-with-anything  beginner skiers.    Who might have had the same enthusiasm as the fit athlete to start but then faced a long and unrewarding climb.     Those skiers are on a plateau also.    Granted, a plateau that looks more like Eastern Colorado than one that looks like the Altiplano, but a plateau nevertheless. 

Change the bold above to rewarding and it isn't a plateau. Traversing is usually part of ascent.

 

Exactly my point, I think.   Unrewarding can happen at any level.

post #111 of 116

Oh jeez is this thread still alive??  Go back and read everything Bob had to say....his analysis pretty much sums it up.

post #112 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieFlippinNM View Post

Oh jeez is this thread still alive??

It just hit a plateau.
post #113 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

 

Ever been to Jackson Hole, Squaw, Whistler or Snowbird?  There's some pretty crazy stuff inbounds.  Your definition sounds more like an expert, although I'd still say there's plenty of inbounds terrain that not all experts can / will ski.


  WHen i say that i mean in terms of  your home mountain, absolutely theres stuff at those mountains i wont go down but im not an expert.  Cant really compare them to other places then we would get into this weird well a blue out east is a black out west convo.  Now i dont know this nor have i done any research on it nor do i care but i would assume a ski patroller for a given mountain can ski everything inbounds at that mountain it would make sense right? I mean that would be part of the job to go where needed at any given time.  That in my mind would make them advanced or an expert whatever way u want to look at it.  If they couldnt ski or get down a certain trail at one of the big boy resorts u named well then they wouldnt be advanced per that mountain in my book. 

post #114 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

 

Exactly. We're back around to the beginning of the thread again. It all depends on how you define "handle." Even the "I know it when I see it" test falls down fatally, because observers come in many flavors of being ignorant or misinformed. They thus often identify as models people whose skiing I wouldn't want anybody to imitate. I encounter this frequently in the chairlift.

 

You just gave me a new idea for defining expert: 

 

any skier I see who I'd be reasonably happy to ski like for the rest of my life. 

post #115 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevez33 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Ever been to Jackson Hole, Squaw, Whistler or Snowbird?  There's some pretty crazy stuff inbounds.  Your definition sounds more like an expert, although I'd still say there's plenty of inbounds terrain that not all experts can / will ski.


  WHen i say that i mean in terms of  your home mountain, absolutely theres stuff at those mountains i wont go down but im not an expert.  Cant really compare them to other places then we would get into this weird well a blue out east is a black out west convo.  Now i dont know this nor have i done any research on it nor do i care but i would assume a ski patroller for a given mountain can ski everything inbounds at that mountain it would make sense right? I mean that would be part of the job to go where needed at any given time.  That in my mind would make them advanced or an expert whatever way u want to look at it.  If they couldnt ski or get down a certain trail at one of the big boy resorts u named well then they wouldnt be advanced per that mountain in my book. 

Much as I'd like your theory (anyone on ski patrol is advanced or expert) to be true, it isn't necessarily. Ski patrol needs to send out patrollers that can stabilize the patient and take them down from wherever in their sled. First, they may have a choice of patrollers to choose from, based on the perceived medical needs they are hearing about AND the location. Second, no one said those patrollers need to get there or leave with the sled with style, just safely. So, they're probably GOOD ENOUGH, but not necessarily GREAT.
post #116 of 116

Beginner = doing the snowplow

 

Intermediate = big range here from wedge christies, to wide track parallel, to skis close together but sliding or skidding the tails across

 

Expert = knows how to "carve" a ski: angulation and weighting the outside ski.  It is easy to spot when someone is doing it right.

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