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How do you MA a great skier. - Page 2

post #31 of 44
Sd mentioned watching the ski. Identify it's relationship to the snow. Then determine what the skier is doing to manipulate that relationship. The rest is pretty easy.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 5/8/13 at 11:52pm
post #32 of 44
Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post

I don't know what MA means, but no matter how good the skiier they can always get their hip more into the turn. (Unless Ted Ligety) One good drill that will humble most is make them arc down a black on one ski. I only know a few people that can do that well. 

MA = Movement Analysis

This is what instructors call figuring out what a skier is doing, how they are doing it and why they are doing it. It is what we do before we start to teach a student (to help decide what to teach) and what we do while we are teaching (in order to provide feedback to the student). Although teaching everyone to get more hip into their turn may be an effective teaching approach, we believe the most effective teaching approach is to evaluate each skier individually to tailor a unique approach that will be most effective for their unique needs.

post #33 of 44
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

Assume you are talking about Sean Warmans Images and concepts series featuring Rogan.


From talking to Rogan, they were his videos and Sean did the heavy lifting for production. Whatever :) I see Rogan all the time. I've never met Sean.


I will be watching those a lot more with a different intent.. i have watched them many times over looking for how to improve my skiing.. Now its to hone my eye..


That is exactly what I meant. Look at them differently.

post #34 of 44
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


TheRusty, nice. I suspect visualization practice can help with this...? When you replay the skier's "video", are you able to recall each turn, or do you see the general pattern of their skiing? 

When you are starting out. The idea is to replay in your head to look at different pieces. For example:

1) determine where in the turn the snow starts spraying and from where along the ski length

2) determine if edge change was simultaneous

3) determine fore/aft weight at edge change

4) determine counter at beginning/middle/end of the turn

5) determine ankle/knee/hip flex at beginning/middle/end

or whatever method you want to use for MA. For each replay you are looking at a different focus point.


We practice this on the lift. I tell my victims to watch a few turns of a skier below. After the skier has gone past, then I ask questions. No peeking back down the hill for answers!


You also see the general pattern. It's really really hard for a skier to change their fundamental movements from turn to turn. You might see more or less of certain things from turn to turn and get different results as the terrain changes, but how most skiers ski is mostly subconscious and that won't change without conscious effort. Until you get to high level skiing, conscious effort can usually be spotted by a trained eye. It is certainly much easier to spot in the context of interaction with a skier vs watching online video clips. Try comparing video clips of the same skier making "good" turns and "bad" turns. There usually is not much difference.

post #35 of 44
Thread Starter 
Anyone know where I can get my hands on the JGS videos . I have JGS-2 Looking for the others.
post #36 of 44

One of the things that I believe helps a skier is being able to ski the easiest gentle green run and make it look like you a hard charging carving perfect animal down the steepest  smooth black run around.


On the black run gravity helps hide flaws, skier power through errors with the aid of gravity and speed, on the gentle green run each and every error you make will immediately cause loss of speed and energy which will show up as a fault.


Do on the green what you do on the black.  You'd be amazed of how many supposed good skiers are stumped by this drill and use the excuse that this is not steep enough.


Please don't get me wrong that if you look good on green, implies that you can ski black.  It is more that a great skier will ski everything with the same skill regardless of pitch.


Finally, something I learned long ago: Each new skill learned, introduces the chance for a new error.  The real skill comes from how consistently you can apply and link each skill as the need arises and not make an error.  The greats just have a large skill set and low error rate.  All our practice is just to improve our odds and increase our skill set.


Already trying to figure out on how I get on the slopes earlier this year.....Please let it snow earlier October.


I want to be a great skier someday at least for one run.

post #37 of 44
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

I don't have a video (except in my mind) but how do you do MA on a great skier.

Hypothetical situation.

What you have is a clearly great skier. Think examiner level. You watch this skier ski a series of almost perfect dynamic short radius turns down a steep groomed run.

Besides realizing that this skier has great balance, great separation of upper and lower body, great leg steering, disiplined hands, etc, those turns are the kind of turns we are all aspiring to attain.. You still need to do MA on this skier and find something to coach, to help them attain a little more in their skiing.

What clues are you looking for? What visual cues?


I'd start with the release/transition.

How are they releasing, what are the skis doing, where's their body, how's it moving etc. What happens with the skis immediately after.

It seems everything comes from that.

Lot's of good suggestions here, but to keep it simple, start from there and build out.

We do MA on wcup skiers all the time here. Photos do give you much more time though to figure it out though, and I doubt anyone here would go up to a wcup skier and offer their "insights" from their ma. On second thought....not so sure about that.


How about if that skier was Glen Plake??

Here's Glen Plake's Level 2 Review apparently first one is skiing, second teaching:

Posted by CharlieP (!) on skiervillage via facebook







There's one from Level III teaching exam:


Quote from Psia-aasi facebook:

Friday Stoke: Glen Plake just sent this email (and a level 3 scorecard).

“Like I said a wonderful experience that has been rewarding and hard fought to achieve. Thank you for being a part of it and inspiring me along the way. I look forward to proudly representing the people that make up the association and what they do for and in the sport. What an honor!!

Glen Plake LIII Certified Ski Instructor ;-)))))))))) ski ya soon!!”

post #38 of 44
Thread Starter 

Resurrecting this for the end of this season.


On my journey,


One thing I have noticed as I practice this more and more..


Often I over think this when pressured to do an MA and am finding that generally my Initial "first thought" in my mind is pretty spot on. I also found that when I take that first thought, and then work my way backwards instead of doing the standard "profile, BERPE - DIRT" process I have better outcomes now.


So in the case of a strong skier in a chute I was watching, The one thing my notes said was "needs more upper lower body separation". Saw this in the first 2.5 turns. The rest of the time I was able to just watch to confirm and build the rest of the MA.


I learned something else during this process. It's OK to say " No discernible turn shape, It was different every time" and it's not descriptive enough to say "balance was back and in"


In the case of above viewed skier, I was able to replay in my mind and fill out the rest.


Young Male, athletic, comfortable in the terrain.


No consistent turn shape. Mostly dictated by necessity (rocks, icy patches, and bumps) and athletic movements to get the ski turning.

Balance was aft and tipped into the hill at the beginning of each turn requiring some sort of athletic move to get back to centered over his feet to get into each turn. During the shaping phase of each turn, he appeared almost centered. at the end of each turn the skier's balance had fallen back again. Sometimes with the hip leaning into the hill and/or standing square to his skis.

Edge angles were created mostly by pushing his skis to an edge. (ski tails did not follow the path of the tips) and the greatest edge angle was at the end of each turn being mostly generated by the pitch of the hill.

Rotary, or turning power was mostly generated by an athletic move or forced counter (not skiing into counter) Often it was an upper body move (shoulders) and occasionally a stem/rotary push off and sometimes a push off of a pole. There was very leg steering, especially at the initiation of the turn.

Pressure was generated by pushing off during the initiation and not managed well at the end of the turn, often requiring a large gross movement to release any pressure being generated by gravity and speed.


DIRT was not worth trying to analyze as the skier was really just managing what was happening.


Going to what Bob mentioned as well as my examiners feed back..... OUTCOME BASED correction..


Couple of things that make sense for outcomes,


steered tops of turns If I want to go at the initiation of the turn.


steering into counter, if I want to go at the finish or exit of the turn.

post #39 of 44
Thread Starter 

and by the way, Glen Plake is lots of fun to ski with!

post #40 of 44

Were you just MA-ing Glen Plake skiing through a chute?

post #41 of 44
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Were you just MA-ing Glen Plake skiing through a chute?

Hah, yeah right..

No, it was a L3 candidate and no he didn't pass..

Glen passed his L3 ski in Mammoth with flying colors. He almost took out the whole contingent of examiners with a little stunt at the end of the day. We were just winding down and "cooling off" and someone asked him to show us a cool trick. So he crossed his feet and proceeded to ski away little toe edge to little toe edge, arc to arc. Of course the examiners couldn't pass up the challenge and I think every one went down..

I didn't ski in Plake's group but we did get to take several runs together with the whole L3 ski group. He did a pole plant tip roll in a real steep crud for us (nailed the landing of course)

And a very down to earth guy.

post #42 of 44

What you describe is very common in athletic L3 candidate skiers in steep off piste terrain. So if you took him up to the top of the same pitch and said, "try_________", what would it be? Here's you're teaching segment. Go! :)

post #43 of 44
Thread Starter 
Since it should be a progression to an outcome...

I'm wanting this skier to ski into counter so he can initiate a new turn just by releasing his edges. (And really understand the strength of this)

On the same pitch but wider and maybe smoother slope so that fear of hitting a wall of rocks isn't a factor, we do some one legged hockey stops with a javelin finish.

Next we do some outside one footed javelin turns.

Next to the javelin turn with the initiation of the new turn on the downhill foot by releasing the edge, by moving to the little toe side.(almost like a whitepass)

Next ski into counter and initiate the turn by releasing the downhill ski.

Last. Pick up the intensity (shorter turns) Quicken the tempo, and take that back to chute.

Things to watch out for. Getting back on the heels with the one foot.. If so, have the skier try to touch the tip of the javelined ski on the ground. Cant do this without moving forward into the boot cuff and flexing the ankle and/or opening the knee on his balancing foot.

Also very hard to initiate a one footed turn onto the little toe side while sitting on the heels. They have to move into the turn their COM moving towards the apex of the new turn to accomplish all of these drills..

post #44 of 44
Thread Starter 
If i were to just go at one thing without the progression..

It would be

Counter first.. And release your edges by "unfolding" all your joints(ankles, knees, hips, knees the most). This should with counter and the hill should create an initiation of a turn.

If this doesn't quite work, get in a strong anticipated stance, now stand on that uphill ski, reverse javelin with the old downhill ski, now touch the tip of the javelin ski to the snow.
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