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Are REI and BC.com killing the snowsports industry? - Page 4

post #91 of 302

Their business is created out of demand.

 

I predict in the future only the best of the best will stand. There will always be a need for good service, bootfitting, ect....what's happening now is old news anyways.

As far as shopping people will almost always follow the prices. Hell I usually buy all my stuff from online retailer via codes and sales and spent a small fortune at the shop at the bottom of Stowe during their 1/2 price clearence sale yet just rebulit mt bikes wheels , brakes, and suspension via online reatilers. Each time I saved lots and lots of money, the main point for me as a consumer.

 

Exactly what are we supposed to do to control online retailers and box atores anyhow? Intervene in some way? Isn't this up to the consumer???

post #92 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

lol. Any of you pro-REI/supply side/all-they-have-to-do-is... folks own, or even work in, a small retail shop?

Yeah, I've worked in a ski shop. So have other people in this thread. Some have mentioned the experience. What's that change? 

Well, if you got involved in the business end, not just pimping gear or poking holes in skis, then I would think you'd see things a little differently.

I probably should have left out the "even work in" phrase, because most floor/shop people don't really know, or give a rat's ass, about how to stay in business or get vested in the community.
post #93 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

lol. Any of you pro-REI/supply side/all-they-have-to-do-is... folks own, or even work in, a small retail shop?
I probably should have left out the "even work in" phrase, because most floor/shop people don't really know, or give a rat's ass, about how to stay in business or get vested in the community.

 

Ok, so what you really meant to ask was:

Quote:
"Any of you pro-REI/supply side/all-they-have-to-do-is... folks own a small retail shop?"

 

So, does anyone who owns a t-shirt shop would welcome a Gap opening next door? Or do you still prefer the monopoly you've had all along?

post #94 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post

Quote:
I probably should have left out the "even work in" phrase, because most floor/shop people don't really know, or give a rat's ass, about how to stay in business or get vested in the community.

Ok, so what you really meant to ask was:
Quote:
"Any of you pro-REI/supply side/all-they-have-to-do-is... folks own a small retail shop?"

So, does anyone who owns a t-shirt shop would welcome a Gap opening next door? Or do you still prefer the monopoly you've had all along?

Yeah, that's what I meant to ask (but without the bold), but can we agree that owning a small retail business =/= a monopoly. That's just more hyperbole - some of you supply-siders really get going on the hyperbole. And it overlooks my points about business and community.
post #95 of 302

So then supporting local business if they are non-competitive, is somewhat like a charity case. 

 

If they can't compete and we are being charitable, let's take the slippery slope.  

 

Forget this phony "purchase" abstraction.  Just buy the skis/boards at the low cost offering, and give a straight donation to your local ski shop to make you community-citizen neutral.  Comes out the same... (except for the issue of pride of employment and hurt feelings).

 

Like thinking you are helping the girl scouts.   I'd rather donate them the $5 instead of fooling myself that cookies are anything other than a bribe to help them.

post #96 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


Well, if you got involved in the business end, not just pimping gear or poking holes in skis, then I would think you'd see things a little differently.

I probably should have left out the "even work in" phrase, because most floor/shop people don't really know, or give a rat's ass, about how to stay in business or get vested in the community.

Probably not. I find this whole conversation kind of pointless. If a ski shop - or any small shop - is so great, innovative, loved and successful, it will continue to do business and survive. If not, it won't. I'm supposed to be mad at the gear-shopping public because it prefers the bigger, better, cheaper retailer over the little guy? Yawn. 

 

To expand on this point, there are a ton of shops (not ski shops, which are pretty crappy) in the local community here that I love. I support them when I can, and hope they survive, but I realize business is business. And I'm not going to piss and moan because factors far beyond my control make it difficult. 


Edited by JoeUT - 5/8/13 at 8:16pm
post #97 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

So then supporting local business if they are non-competitive, is somewhat like a charity case. 

If they can't compete and we are being charitable, let's take the slippery slope.  

Forget this phony "purchase" abstraction.  Just buy the skis/boards at the low cost offering, and give a straight donation to your local ski shop to make you community-citizen neutral.  Comes out the same... (except for the issue of pride of employment and hurt feelings).

Give me a break. This can't be the first time you've heard about the possible false economies of buying the cheapest goods. I'm not going to argue supply-side and bigger-is-better economics with you guys - I think the economic history of the last 12 years speaks better than I could to that. But if for some reason you've missed all that, this might make for some thought-provoking reading:
http://thinkshopbuylocal.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_purchasing
post #98 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


Give me a break. This can't be the first time you've heard about the possible false economies of buying the cheapest goods. I'm not going to argue supply-side and bigger-is-better economics with you guys - I think the economic history of the last 12 years speaks better than I could to that. But if for some reason you've missed all that, this might make for some thought-provoking reading:
http://thinkshopbuylocal.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_purchasing

 

Nothing new. This has been argued over the past couple decades, in case anyone missed that until now.

 

Most people who will "think" had already thought, and made up their mind. Those who doesn't bother to think still won't. The result can be seen as clear as the writing on the wall.

post #99 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


Give me a break. This can't be the first time you've heard about the possible false economies of buying the cheapest goods. I'm not going to argue supply-side and bigger-is-better economics with you guys - I think the economic history of the last 12 years speaks better than I could to that. But if for some reason you've missed all that, this might make for some thought-provoking reading:
http://thinkshopbuylocal.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_purchasing

 

As a chef try hard to live by this concept, and I need to try my best to compete with well marketed chains with huge buying power. It keeps me and my staff on their game. All the hacks can beat it...

 

As a dude looking to buy a ski coat there's really quite a challenge truly keeping it local I would say, the ski shop is just a middleman. Skis not so much, both pairs of mine are made in the usa.

post #100 of 302

I've been an REI member since 1968, when they had one brick and mortar store in Seattle.  In Ohio and Michigan  back then there was no other source of high quality backpacking and mountaineering gear, which was pretty much all they carried at that time, except for mail order from EMS.  When I moved to California I bought from small, now defunct stores until REI came to town with a much greater selection and inventory. I've bought paddling, bike, and ski gear and repair work from local shops-a lot of ski gear especially, but for backpacking and climbing they really have not had any serious competition in all that time.  First time I ever took something used back was a year ago--I've returned a two year old pair of water shoes that delaminated and hiking boots with 5 days on them where the sole had already worn down to the toe cap.  REI prospers because of selection and quality of merchandise primarily. It has decent customer service--the return policy obviously and product info on the web site, but sales staff on the floor is limited and so-so as far as knowledge, and for stuff like ski boots and repair work, inferior, pricing is competitive but not special until you figure in the dividends and sales.  I see nothing predatory or anticompetitive in any of this--they just do a good job filling a niche that frankly no one else really comes close to filling.

post #101 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post

 

Nothing new. This has been argued over the past couple decades, in case anyone missed that until now.

 

Most people who will "think" had already thought, and made up their mind. Those who doesn't bother to think still won't. The result can be seen as clear as the writing on the wall.

 

There's always the off chance that some of the people here are young and haven't yet been exposed to the idea of, as Bob calls it, the false economies of buying the cheapest goods. Even if the older generation is jaded and trapped in their thinking, I would like to think that young people are rational and open to doing the right thing (i.e. supporting their communities). 

post #102 of 302

Year 10 students at a resort will be getting $1.5m to start up a business of their choosing with very successful mentors guiding them ...and the kids will be more aware of the long term consequences of short sighted beancounting.

post #103 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

There's always the off chance that some of the people here are young and haven't yet been exposed to the idea of, as Bob calls it, the false economies of buying the cheapest goods. Even if the older generation is jaded and trapped in their thinking, I would like to think that young people are rational and open to doing the right thing (i.e. supporting their communities). 

we are now wading into waters that I doubt too many of us fully understand. While spending local might be better for the localized micro-economy it doesn't mean that buying the cheapest goods is creating false economies. The macro-economy as whole does benefit from it and as much as we may deny/dislike it we are now  part of a globalized economy where downturns in Europe have affects over here in the US. So while spending local might benefit your local ski economy, it will often end in stagnation. The local shops aren't driving industry innovation and when you only buy from their small selection you are effectively cutting off every company they don't sell from that areas cash flow.         

 

Buy the way Bob you might want to red your links yourself, they clearly explain that Local buying is a form of morale based spending not that they are more effective economic drivers for the macro economy. North Korean's buy entirely local look t it's wonderful economy. There's a reason pretty much every country has abandoned isolationism.  

 

Edit: Forgot to add that I have only taken an intro econ course so I could be way off the mark 

post #104 of 302

I returned some snow pants that didnt fit to REI. They took them back, but they gave me crap about it. Tried to make me feel like it was my fault. She was put out. A little piece of customer service advice. If you're going to take them back, make the customer feel good about it. Might as well keep the customer happy.

 

If you want to give the customer a ration of crap, then don't take them back. Now you can make him feel as bad as you want. You may be kissing the customer goodbye, but at least you don't have to cough up the dough for the return, so you get something in return. Your call.

post #105 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post

 

 

the internet sales tax is exactly the typo of regulation that makes it tougher for smaller shops(and all small businesses around). they are turning small businesses into tax collector. Larger companies with accounting departments can take the extra work load much easier than a smaller shop thats owner does the accounting,



Taxes that fund. The war on drugs, over seas wars, weapon development and various other things that take away from our liberty instead of adding to it.

 

 

ummm, no....  actually, this is wrong on so many levels. The "regulation" is simply an enforcement of your states laws. Not federal.  It hurts your state and community and the biggest thing it does is put your local mom & pops at a huge disadvantage. The internet tax collection ruling as it stands now will only apply to companies with sales in excess of 1 Million $ and software will be provided to the vendor. If they are going to offer sales outside of their own state, then they should be willing to bear the burden of collecting sales taxes due that state. They are under no legal requirement to sell outside their own state.  Amazon and the others are killing local stores who are losing sales in their B&M shops to non-sales taxed purchases. Liberty? Stop reading so many radical blogs.   you are not losing your liberty's; you live in a society which includes the collection of taxes, laws, rules and regulations that are for the common good. If you want liberty, then you better get used to the fact that a well-regulated militia is part of the equation.  

post #106 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

Buy the way Bob you might want to red your links yourself, they clearly explain that Local buying is a form of morale based spending not that they are more effective economic drivers for the macro economy. North Korean's buy entirely local look t it's wonderful economy. There's a reason pretty much every country has abandoned isolationism.  
"Buy" the way? That was a funny typo.

But you might want to read (red) the links a little better. The second one isn't conclusive like you seem to think, it is qualified throughout. It presents a fairly balanced discussion pro/con and that was why I posted it. The moral buying is just one aspect of the argument for local buying, and what the hell is wrong with buying based on morals anyway? Then there's this sentence:
Quote:
Others contend (with empirical evidence) that local purchasing and contracting enhances local job creation and wealth while strengthening community cohesiveness.[1]

^Note the "empirical evidence" phrase? Re-read and get back to us.

And North Korea? Please, there are other issues there. rolleyes.gif
post #107 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


"Buy" the way? That was a funny typo.

But you might want to read (red) the links a little better. The second one isn't conclusive like you seem to think, it is qualified throughout. It presents a fairly balanced discussion pro/con and that was why I posted it. The moral buying is just one aspect of the argument for local buying, and what the hell is wrong with buying based on morals anyway? Then there's this sentence:
^Note the "empirical evidence" phrase? Re-read and get back to us.

And North Korea? Please, there are other issues there. rolleyes.gif

Key to that sentence being LOCAL job creation ie Micro economic effects. Completely ignores the impact on the Macro economy. If you read the second part of the article there are also these sentences:

 

 "They [other economists] argue that transportation costs actually account for a fraction of overall production prices, and that choosing less efficient local products over more efficient nonlocal products is an economic deadweight loss."

 

Local purchasing " is just a watered-down version of protectionism, and would not benefit communities as proponents envisage." 

 

"Besides these arguments against local purchasing, society has now reached a point where globalization is so deeply embedded that it is difficult to turn back, and impossible to remove completely."

 

The North Korea refrence was just a jab nothing like a straw man argumentrolleyes.gif

post #108 of 302

  The only people ruining the industry are ones like this that damaged 1K of boards to make a stupid video about it

post #109 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

"Buy" the way? That was a funny typo.

But you might want to read (red) the links a little better. The second one isn't conclusive like you seem to think, it is qualified throughout. It presents a fairly balanced discussion pro/con and that was why I posted it. The moral buying is just one aspect of the argument for local buying, and what the hell is wrong with buying based on morals anyway? Then there's this sentence:

^Note the "empirical evidence" phrase? Re-read and get back to us.

And North Korea? Please, there are other issues there. rolleyes.gif

Key to that sentence being LOCAL job creation ie Micro economic effects. Completely ignores the impact on the Macro economy. If you read the second part of the article there are also these sentences:

 "They [other economists] argue that transportation costs actually account for a fraction of overall production prices, and that choosing less efficient local products over more efficient nonlocal products is an economic deadweight loss."

Local purchasing " is just a watered-down version of protectionism, and would not benefit communities as proponents envisage." 

"Besides these arguments against local purchasing, society has now reached a point where globalization is so deeply embedded that it is difficult to turn back, and impossible to remove completely."

The North Korea refrence was just a jab nothing like a straw man argument rolleyes.gif

Again, I thought the article presented a balanced POV. You're just focusing on one part. I'm not going to argue for the other side - it's all there in the article, read it and make your choices. I will just add that my take on the macro approach to world economics is that it doesn't seem to be making things better.
post #110 of 302

Pfffff...  Thank God for that return policy.  Those of us who know about that certain website (my God please don't list it here) that lists their returns, the conditions they're in and sells them for deep discounts are stoked that a ton of people are douchebags about the policy.  

 

 

Also I know for a fact that BC.com scores their customers.  Return too many things for no reason and your score falls.  Do it enough and you're banned from returning things.  One of the girls that works the counter there said that they started doing that because some people are so douchey about it that they'll come in 1st day of their vaca, pick out the most high end stuff they can find, use it while they're out there and return it before they go home and get their money back.  Totally disgusting if you ask me, but it sounds like they're working on shutting down the abusers.  In any case, if they want to open that door there will always be abusers.  

post #111 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


Again, I thought the article presented a balanced POV. You're just focusing on one part. I'm not going to argue for the other side - it's all there in the article, read it and make your choices. I will just add that my take on the macro approach to world economics is that it doesn't seem to be making things better.

I applause you for putting up a link with more neutral POV instead of some one-sided ones. People will always pick and choose to quote what they feel highlight their side of the view. That's call "supporting evidence". ;-)

 

People who haven't made up their mind on the subject can read for themselves to reach their own decision.

 

But I maintain it's got nothing to do with the return policy. It's just a rant in disguise. It's so transparent even a 3 year old can see right through it! And the way the video went about the subject will turn off far more of those who may even be on the fence to begin with. Two wrongs don't make a right!

post #112 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post


Again, I thought the article presented a balanced POV. You're just focusing on one part. I'm not going to argue for the other side - it's all there in the article, read it and make your choices. I will just add that my take on the macro approach to world economics is that it doesn't seem to be making things better.

Fair enough. Whether or not globalization is a good thing is a different debate but I happen to be a big fan of things like salt and spices, computers, cars, ect. Buying local is great if you can do it but it is largely limited to agriculture, global trade fosters teh transfer of ideas and much of the technology of today wouldn't exist without globalozation of the world economy. Specialization is a good thing, I;m willing to pay a mechanic lots of money because it would take me 10x longer to do the same work.

 

I buy corn from the Mid west because ti grows well there and bananas don't seem fond of growing in the desert. There's not a whole lot of oil here in New Mexico either so I buy it from foreign companies.

 

Since were buying local I guess you don't buy anything from Atomic, Elan, Stockli, Hestra or any of the other major foreign ski equipment manufacturer.      

post #113 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

Whether or not globalization is a good thing is a different debate but I happen to be a big fan of things like salt and spices, computers, cars, ect. Buying local is great if you can do it but it is largely limited to agriculture, global trade fosters teh transfer of ideas and much of the technology of today wouldn't exist without globalozation of the world economy. Specialization is a good thing, I;m willing to pay a mechanic lots of money because it would take me 10x longer to do the same work.

 

I buy corn from the Mid west because ti grows well there and bananas don't seem fond of growing in the desert. There's not a whole lot of oil here in New Mexico either so I buy it from foreign companies.

 

Since were buying local I guess you don't buy anything from Atomic, Elan, Stockli, Hestra or any of the other major foreign ski equipment manufacturer.      

 

Sigh.  Gimme a fucking break here.  I do what little I can to try and make things better.  Of course you can find fault with anyone that tries that, but what's the point?  Doesn't mean they have to give in to everything they think is wrong.  People tear down MLK for his womanizing, like that negates the good things he stood for.  If you think supporting REI and/or Walmart makes things better, have at it.  FWIW I don't shop at Walmart either, but I'm still an asshole - if that makes you feel better about shopping there, enjoy.  

 

BTW, New Mexico does produce (and export) a shitload of oil.  You need to visit Farmington or Carlsbad sometime.  

post #114 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

 

Sigh.  Gimme a fucking break here.  I do what little I can to try and make things better.  Of course you can find fault with anyone that tries that, but what's the point?  Doesn't mean they have to give in to everything they think is wrong.  People tear down MLK for his womanizing, like that negates the good things he stood for.  If you think supporting REI and/or Walmart makes things better, have at it.  FWIW I don't shop at Walmart either, but I'm still an asshole - if that makes you feel better about shopping there, enjoy.  

 

BTW, New Mexico does produce (and export) a shitload of oil.  You need to visit Farmington or Carlsbad sometime.  

That wasn't my point. You made a statement about globalization not neccessarily being a good thing and I was trying to point out that the ski industry has been a huge benefactor of it. I guess I did it poorly.

 

Hmm I was unaware of that. I have to friends that work in the oil bussiness and they always get sent up to North Dakota so I just assumed.

post #115 of 302

So now REI = Walmart?  Really?

post #116 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Work View Post

 

Also I know for a fact that BC.com scores their customers.  Return too many things for no reason and your score falls.  Do it enough and you're banned from returning things.  One of the girls that works the counter there said that they started doing that because some people are so douchey about it that they'll come in 1st day of their vaca, pick out the most high end stuff they can find, use it while they're out there and return it before they go home and get their money back.  Totally disgusting if you ask me, but it sounds like they're working on shutting down the abusers.  In any case, if they want to open that door there will always be abusers.  

 

Quite true. I bought some things from the site-that-will-not-be-named, forgot all about it, then when I went to use it, the size didn't work. Had it for well over the listed return period, but called them up and they said that I was a fine customer and they'd be pleased to return for either replacement or refund.

 

I often buy two sizes being unsure what will fit and again, no biggee sending back. One caveat, is that the returns ALWAYS go back in original packaging with all tags attached.

 

People who take abuse the generous return policies suck.

post #117 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post

 

 

 I hate huge companies that are supported by government regulation.

 

 

Like AIG, which owns Chartis, which owns...do you want to say it, or should I? 

 

...Stowe. Actually I think there are a couple other subsidiary companies in there somewhere, but the ultimate owner is AIG.

 

Now, I seem to recall AIG getting a little government support not too long ago.

 

Too bad you can't ski at Stowe any more due to your principles.

 

Josh - I'm glad you're back.  It's been boring here without you. 

post #118 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyymc View Post

 

Like AIG, which owns Chartis, which owns...do you want to say it, or should I? 

 

...Stowe. Actually I think there are a couple other subsidiary companies in there somewhere, but the ultimate owner is AIG.

 

Now, I seem to recall AIG getting a little government support not too long ago.

 

Too bad you can't ski at Stowe any more due to your principles.

 

Josh - I'm glad you're back.  It's been boring here without you. 


roflmao.gif

post #119 of 302

I would like to support local but where I am located it is just not competitive enough. For example I ended up buying k2 kung fujas with bindings and free shipping for 499.99 from an online retailer. Locally at their spring clearence the k2 kung fujas and same bindings were 799.99. So I saved 300.00. I do want to support my local shop but they would not match the price and I am not going to willingly hand over a free 300.00.

 

This return policy seems kind of handy if you ask me. I usually buy my boots local but over pay by anywhere from 100-200 compared to online prices. Might have to try it out.

post #120 of 302
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyymc View Post

 

Like AIG, which owns Chartis, which owns...do you want to say it, or should I? 

 

...Stowe. Actually I think there are a couple other subsidiary companies in there somewhere, but the ultimate owner is AIG.

 

Now, I seem to recall AIG getting a little government support not too long ago.

 

Too bad you can't ski at Stowe any more due to your principles.

 

Josh - I'm glad you're back.  It's been boring here without you. 

 

 

hey I personally would have rather seen AIG not get the bailout money. Or anyone get the bailout money. I am just a very low level employe, IMO my services go to those with the best overall package compensation. Stowe provides that. If a smaller place could offer what stowe does with a similar skiing experince for my days off then I would be game. The thing is stowe treats their employes more than fairly and beside my beef with how the united states government treated the parents company and alot of other financial companies the Mount Mansifield Company is a well a nice place to work. 

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