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Want that one ski quiver all mountain twin tip ski.

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I don't know that much about skis. I'm looking for that one ski quiver that I can grow into and use at an advanced to expert level in trees, moguls, park (more jumps and spins than grinding on rails), riding switch, and steep, fast, hardpack groomers. Not sure if this exists. Mild powder because to be honest true powder is a bit hard to come by.
 
I currently have a 160cm Salomon X-Wing 8 which...
 
 
1. Are skinny and suck in powder.
2. Hard to ride switch in.
3. Great for going straight and fast, but off piste stuff is a bit tough.
 
These are the recommendations from NewSchoolers: 
 
 
LOCATION - This will vary tremendously from Colorado, California, to South America?
 
HEIGHT/AGE/WEIGHT - 5'5", 27, 150lb - my current ski length is 160cm - I heard that ski length has something to do with your height? In this case would it be dumb to go with something like 180cm?
 
ABILITY LEVEL - Solid Intermediate but I'm rapidly getting better at trees, moguls, and park.
 
BUDGET - Under $700? I'll be looking for sales. I'm ok with any price as long as it'll last.
 
WHAT KIND OF SKI DO YOU WANT - I want to be an all mountain skier and a park skier.
 
I'm currently in CO and can ski Arapahoe Basin anytime.
post #2 of 21
I think what you are looking for is practically non-existent... I would equally be curious in finding out if such a ski ever exists.
post #3 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksklo View Post

I think what you are looking for is practically non-existent... I would equally be curious in finding out if such a ski ever exists.

What do you mean non-existent?? They are COUNTLESS all mountain twins that will work very well as one ski quiver and still perform really well in the park. To the OP, some good skis to look at would be the Rossignol Scimitar (try to find them if you can they are an amazing price and they stopped making them this year), Line Chronic/Blend/Sir Francis Bacon, ON3P Jeronimo, Volkl Bridge, K2 Recoil/Kung Fujas, Nordica Soul Rider, Dynastar 6th Sense Distorter/Slicer... The list goes on and on, but those are some of the better options - of them all the best probably being the Jeronimos and the Blend, as for your question regarding the ski length you'd probably want to go with something around 165-170ish, depending on the ski and how much rocker it has.

post #4 of 21
Seriously, would any of these be as good as pure carvers when it comes to hardpack groomers? I can agree with trees, moguels and possibly park, but none of them would be as quick and responsive as a pure front side carver, such as the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT.
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksklo View Post

Seriously, would any of these be as good as pure carvers when it comes to hardpack groomers? I can agree with trees, moguels and possibly park, but none of them would be as quick and responsive as a pure front side carver, such as the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT.

 

Well, duh.  And none of them will be as good in deep powder as a ski that's 120mm.  Every all mountain ski has *some* compromise, but many can do everything pretty well.

post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksklo View Post

Seriously, would any of these be as good as pure carvers when it comes to hardpack groomers? I can agree with trees, moguels and possibly park, but none of them would be as quick and responsive as a pure front side carver, such as the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT.

 

I wouldn't consider the FA 84 EDT a "pure front side carver."  It's 84mm underfoot and has some tip rocker.  I've skied it in 6-8" of pow and in chopped up crud in the trees as well as ripping down groomers and while it is exceptionally good on the groomers and very good everywhere else I skied it, it isn't meant to be a pure carving ski.  If it was it would be a lot narrower.  They are on my list for next season to replace both my Volkl Supersport Allstars and about "half" of my Nordica Steadfasts.  The other "half" of the Steadfasts and my Icelantic Shamans are being replaced by Atomic Rituals.

post #7 of 21

Mmmmmm .... if the FA 84EDT has tip rocker then I got a bad pair wink.gif

 

I, too, have taken them into a little bit of soft/fresh, but with all their camber under foot they really need a firm base under anything loose, and with that low tip profile thick heavy glop scares the crap out of me! Basically, if it's soft and loose when I'm first getting ready to start, the 84EDTs aren't coming with me.

post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksklo View Post

Seriously, would any of these be as good as pure carvers when it comes to hardpack groomers? I can agree with trees, moguels and possibly park, but none of them would be as quick and responsive as a pure front side carver, such as the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT.

I wouldn't consider the FA 84 EDT a "pure front side carver."  It's 84mm underfoot and has some tip rocker.  I've skied it in 6-8" of pow and in chopped up crud in the trees as well as ripping down groomers and while it is exceptionally good on the groomers and very good everywhere else I skied it, it isn't meant to be a pure carving ski.  If it was it would be a lot narrower.  They are on my list for next season to replace both my Volkl Supersport Allstars and about "half" of my Nordica Steadfasts.  The other "half" of the Steadfasts and my Icelantic Shamans are being replaced by Atomic Rituals.

Wow. That Steadfast affair was awfully brief considering how brightly it burned over the past year.
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksklo View Post

Seriously, would any of these be as good as pure carvers when it comes to hardpack groomers? I can agree with trees, moguels and possibly park, but none of them would be as quick and responsive as a pure front side carver, such as the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT.

I wouldn't consider the FA 84 EDT a "pure front side carver."  It's 84mm underfoot and has some tip rocker.  I've skied it in 6-8" of pow and in chopped up crud in the trees as well as ripping down groomers and while it is exceptionally good on the groomers and very good everywhere else I skied it, it isn't meant to be a pure carving ski.  If it was it would be a lot narrower.  They are on my list for next season to replace both my Volkl Supersport Allstars and about "half" of my Nordica Steadfasts.  The other "half" of the Steadfasts and my Icelantic Shamans are being replaced by Atomic Rituals.

Wow. That Steadfast affair was awfully brief considering how brightly it burned over the past year.

 

I kind of saw mtcyclist and Steadfasts not unlike this:

 

post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by FairToMiddlin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksklo View Post

Seriously, would any of these be as good as pure carvers when it comes to hardpack groomers? I can agree with trees, moguels and possibly park, but none of them would be as quick and responsive as a pure front side carver, such as the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT.

I wouldn't consider the FA 84 EDT a "pure front side carver."  It's 84mm underfoot and has some tip rocker.  I've skied it in 6-8" of pow and in chopped up crud in the trees as well as ripping down groomers and while it is exceptionally good on the groomers and very good everywhere else I skied it, it isn't meant to be a pure carving ski.  If it was it would be a lot narrower.  They are on my list for next season to replace both my Volkl Supersport Allstars and about "half" of my Nordica Steadfasts.  The other "half" of the Steadfasts and my Icelantic Shamans are being replaced by Atomic Rituals.

Wow. That Steadfast affair was awfully brief considering how brightly it burned over the past year.

 

I kind of saw mtcyclist and Steadfasts not unlike this:

 

 

 

Nordica is going to have to revisit that model now. They could pull in some of the more youth-oriented design parameters from the Rossi Sickle. Then they could rename it from "Steadfast" to "Fickle."

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

Wow. That Steadfast affair was awfully brief considering how brightly it burned over the past year.

It was actually two seasons and I still consider it a great ski.  Just remember, we marry boots but only date skis.biggrin.gif

post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Just remember, we marry boots but only date skis.biggrin.gif

 

I'm not even dating skis.  I'm demoing this year and pick up a new pair every time I hit the hill!

 

I'm also starting to shop around for new boots. After five years my boots are packed-out and not as snug as they once were. rolleyes.gif


Edited by tball - 4/26/13 at 12:16am
post #13 of 21

Fuzzy,

 

By far the biggest road block you're going to find when looking for a ski like this, is it's ability to charge hard pack, float in powder, and still be spin-able off jumps. The biggest reason is that there aren't a lot (if any) of mid-fat twins that feature metal in them (beneficial for charging hard pack). There are park skis out there with metal layers, but most have a waist between 80-90mm. Metal in park skis is often used to make the ski stiffer so you're less likely to wash out on the landing of a big jump if you land back seat at all. People who are hitting jumps at that level typically don't use wider skis because they can be cumbersome when it comes to big tricks. As a result... there aren't many twin tip skis that are wide enough for powder, and also have metal in it's construction. 

 

That said, the ski you're describing is still out there. If you can settle for a a slightly softer ski on the hard pack, then you'll be able to find a ski that can take on just about anything. Here's a few suggestions that we have over at Skiessentials.com. Keep in mind that we're offering an additional 20% off the listed price for these items, through Monday.

 

2013 K2 Kung Fujas- I've gotta start with this one because it's my everyday ski. It just so happens that I'd identify myself as the same type of skier as you. I like to spend about half of my time lapping the terrain park, and the other half around the mountain railing groomers and finding little features on the side of the trail. For me, the Kung Fujas is the champion of this style of skiing. It's 102mm in the waist, and features a Rocker/Camber/Rocker profile. I find this camber profile to be the best combination out, as it allows your skis to be playful both forward and switch, but also gives you the advantage of having camber underfoot for increased edge hold. The one concern I'd have with you choosing this ski, is just that it's exceptionally soft, especially compared to a ski like the X-Wing 8 which has metal in it. I find that I have no problem laying it on edge on groomers, but then again I have a preference for soft skis. I have seen them chatter a few times, but that's been under the more extreme conditions. Overall, I'd highly recommend this ski.

 

2012 Atomic Coax- This ski is another really solid choice, right up there with the Fujas. It features a 105mm waist, and Atomic's Adaptive Camber. Essentially, this means that when the ski is unweighted, it has traditional camber. When you click into it though, the ski has a bit of tip rocker. The result is a ski that has some tip rocker in most conditions, but has a full traditional camber when you're transitioning between edges (between carves). As far as powder and hard pack performance go, this ski's going to have the leg up on the Fujas. It's a little bit wider, and it's camber profile is geared more towards high speed runs. The downside here, is that it's waist width is starting to be a bit wide for solid park performance. While it can definitely be done, there's no denying that these skis won't be as nimble as a narrower ski in the park. Ultimately though, that's one of the conflicts you'll have to weigh out when you make your final call.

 

2013 Volkl Bridge- This ski is the narrowest of the bunch, and definitely the most park specific. I wanted to throw it in here to give you an option that's closer to 70% park, 30% groomers. This ski is 95mm underfoot, and features Volkl's Full Rocker Profile. The important thing to note here, is that the ski doesn't have any camber under foot. It's going to be a blast in the park, and float exceptionally well in powder, for it's size. The trade off of course, is that you won't be laying down as mean of a carve on hard pack. It can still be done of course, but it's not where the ski excels. This would be the ski of choice if you're looking to focus more on getting into park skiing as opposed to mostly ripping groomers, and occasionally checking into the terrain park.

 

And I want to leave you with one more ski to think about. It's not out until next fall, but the 2014 Blizzard Peacemaker is perfect for what you're asking for. I had the chance to demo it this past Spring up at Stowe, and was literally blown away. Essentially, it felt like a stiffer version of my Kung Fujas's. It's 104mm underfoot, and features a Rocker/Camber/Rocker profile. I spent most of the day ripping groomers, forwards and switch, but did manage to swing it through the park for a lap. I kept it off rails, but hit a few jumps. Typically you're worried about a ski like this being a bit sluggish on spins. As it turns out, the ski spins so easily I ended up over rotating on one of my go-to tricks. Out of all of the skis I've mentioned, this is definitely the most appropriate for you. Unfortunately, you will be paying full price and waiting until the Fall if it is the ski you want.

 

Hope this helps, and feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions!

 

Matt @ Skiessentials.com

post #14 of 21

Try the Salomon Rocker2 92, or the Salomon Twenty Twelve (older version of same ski). They were originally created for park skiing, but perform so well off piste and even on groomers that they've been remarketed since then.

 

About your length question, 180cm would be too long for you in almost any ski. I'm a 6', 165lbs advanced skier and dislike anything over 175cm. My daily drivers are 170cm. For you I'm guessing 160-168cm depending on how much rocker (with lots of rocker, go to the longer end).

post #15 of 21

Fuzzybunny, I don't think you should consider anything over 90mm.  Here's my thinking:

 

  • Ability: as a rapidly advancing strong intermediate, I don't think a wider skis is helpful in learning to become an all-mountain expert skier.  Search the site and ask in the instruction forum as I believe this has been asked before.  What's the ideal ski width for an all mountain skier at your level to learn on?
  • Powder:  I'm sorry to break this to you, but the powder you've experienced in Colorado the last three weeks isn't the norm :-(   It's a bit unusual to go for weeks without being able to find a groomer.  Don't let this bias your ski purchase!   A one ski quiver just needs to be OK in powder and should focus on the other snow conditions it will see 90% of the time (anything but powder).
  • Bumps: this is the hard part.  Anything over 90mm will suck in the bumps.  Most new skis suck in the zipper line.  A strong bump skier can ski a wider ski in the bumps, and some even choose to do so regularly, but it's not ideal especially for learning.  The widest ski I've found that can ski a zipper line well is a 90.  It's hard enough to learn to ski bumps, don't handicap yourself with a ski that is too wide.  Look around A-basin where you are skiing now.  Bumps are everywhere!  This is a really important criteria for an advanced/expert ski and skier and it gets glossed over too often, IMO because so many people can't or won't ski bumps.

 

Something to consider: your current ski might not be such a bad bump ski since it's narrower and shorter, exactly what you want in a bump specific ski.  As the snow firms up over the next week at A-basin you might find it's working better for you and still has a place in your quiver.  That might make it easier to find your second ski which would then be more of a park/powder ski.

 

Here's a great thread about one ski quiver that includes some good comments about bump performance.  Note that 1) there's a pretty strong consensus on the 90mm max for all mountain (if you care about bumps), and 2) it's hard enough to finding the ideal one ski quiver without adding your twin tip requirement.

http://www.epicski.com/t/110273/whats-become-of-the-all-mountan-ski

post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiessentials View Post

Fuzzy,

 

By far the biggest road block you're going to find when looking for a ski like this, is it's ability to charge hard pack, float in powder, and still be spin-able off jumps. The biggest reason is that there aren't a lot (if any) of mid-fat twins that feature metal in them (beneficial for charging hard pack). There are park skis out there with metal layers, but most have a waist between 80-90mm. Metal in park skis is often used to make the ski stiffer so you're less likely to wash out on the landing of a big jump if you land back seat at all. People who are hitting jumps at that level typically don't use wider skis because they can be cumbersome when it comes to big tricks. As a result... there aren't many twin tip skis that are wide enough for powder, and also have metal in it's construction. 

 

That said, the ski you're describing is still out there. If you can settle for a a slightly softer ski on the hard pack, then you'll be able to find a ski that can take on just about anything. Here's a few suggestions that we have over at Skiessentials.com. Keep in mind that we're offering an additional 20% off the listed price for these items, through Monday.

 

2013 K2 Kung Fujas- I've gotta start with this one because it's my everyday ski. It just so happens that I'd identify myself as the same type of skier as you. I like to spend about half of my time lapping the terrain park, and the other half around the mountain railing groomers and finding little features on the side of the trail. For me, the Kung Fujas is the champion of this style of skiing. It's 102mm in the waist, and features a Rocker/Camber/Rocker profile. I find this camber profile to be the best combination out, as it allows your skis to be playful both forward and switch, but also gives you the advantage of having camber underfoot for increased edge hold. The one concern I'd have with you choosing this ski, is just that it's exceptionally soft, especially compared to a ski like the X-Wing 8 which has metal in it. I find that I have no problem laying it on edge on groomers, but then again I have a preference for soft skis. I have seen them chatter a few times, but that's been under the more extreme conditions. Overall, I'd highly recommend this ski.

 

2012 Atomic Coax- This ski is another really solid choice, right up there with the Fujas. It features a 105mm waist, and Atomic's Adaptive Camber. Essentially, this means that when the ski is unweighted, it has traditional camber. When you click into it though, the ski has a bit of tip rocker. The result is a ski that has some tip rocker in most conditions, but has a full traditional camber when you're transitioning between edges (between carves). As far as powder and hard pack performance go, this ski's going to have the leg up on the Fujas. It's a little bit wider, and it's camber profile is geared more towards high speed runs. The downside here, is that it's waist width is starting to be a bit wide for solid park performance. While it can definitely be done, there's no denying that these skis won't be as nimble as a narrower ski in the park. Ultimately though, that's one of the conflicts you'll have to weigh out when you make your final call.

 

2013 Volkl Bridge- This ski is the narrowest of the bunch, and definitely the most park specific. I wanted to throw it in here to give you an option that's closer to 70% park, 30% groomers. This ski is 95mm underfoot, and features Volkl's Full Rocker Profile. The important thing to note here, is that the ski doesn't have any camber under foot. It's going to be a blast in the park, and float exceptionally well in powder, for it's size. The trade off of course, is that you won't be laying down as mean of a carve on hard pack. It can still be done of course, but it's not where the ski excels. This would be the ski of choice if you're looking to focus more on getting into park skiing as opposed to mostly ripping groomers, and occasionally checking into the terrain park.

 

And I want to leave you with one more ski to think about. It's not out until next fall, but the 2014 Blizzard Peacemaker is perfect for what you're asking for. I had the chance to demo it this past Spring up at Stowe, and was literally blown away. Essentially, it felt like a stiffer version of my Kung Fujas's. It's 104mm underfoot, and features a Rocker/Camber/Rocker profile. I spent most of the day ripping groomers, forwards and switch, but did manage to swing it through the park for a lap. I kept it off rails, but hit a few jumps. Typically you're worried about a ski like this being a bit sluggish on spins. As it turns out, the ski spins so easily I ended up over rotating on one of my go-to tricks. Out of all of the skis I've mentioned, this is definitely the most appropriate for you. Unfortunately, you will be paying full price and waiting until the Fall if it is the ski you want.

 

Hope this helps, and feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions!

 

Matt @ Skiessentials.com

 

 

Really good information here, but I do have to disagree when Skiessentials mentions that the Bridge won't carve that well. In MY opinion, as I have skied all 3, the Bridge carves the best of the 3 mentioned here.

post #17 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replies! I've also heard a lot about the Geronimos?

And FYI I think I'll be weaning myself away from the groomers. More forest and moguls for me. The only groomers that I appreciate are the steep fast ones anyway, which are hard to find. I try to get off of blue groomers as fast as possible, meaning heading into the forest.
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk94 View Post

 

 

Really good information here, but I do have to disagree when Skiessentials mentions that the Bridge won't carve that well. In MY opinion, as I have skied all 3, the Bridge carves the best of the 3 mentioned here.

 

I'll admit that it seems like it's a personal thing, thinking that the Bridge's don't hold an edge well. I personally don't enjoy skis without camber. There's a good chance that that's just me though, as I've heard many people with similar thoughts as you. Plus, Volkl's RTM series has a full rocker (no camber), and people love those skis on hard groomers. I'm not sure why it is, but I just dislike not having camber. It makes me feel too flat footed I guess. Regardless of that small qualm though, I do enjoy the Bridge's, and threw them in the list because I think they'd be a good fit for you!

post #19 of 21

I really like the Atomic Alibis? I got on this year. it was like a beefier version of the beloved  "the one" with metal in it. 180cm I sitll thought it was fairly easy going as an expert weighing alittle more than you. I think it might push you but thats not a bad thing.

post #20 of 21

OP,

 

My first word of advice is really figure out if you are planning to do any rails. If you are it should totally dictate what ski you should get. If you value any performance in your skis outside the park you should probably stay off them as much as you can, or buy a cheap dedicated pair for rails.

 

I'm 5'10" and 150lbs and made it through about 80% of the season skiing only on the Sir Francis Bacon in the east, so it can be done. If you are looking to get into powder and park more you're going to be looking at softer skis plain and simple. But softer skis are going to get squirrely at higher speeds when the conditions are firm. There is going to be a short coming somewhere and you have the ability to determine where you want it to fall.

 

I'm biased since I own the SFB and have a ton of days on it.. but really the only time when they aren't fun is when things are very firm, firm chop at speed, and icy conditions. Other than that they are a blast, great float in powder for us smaller guys (and by powder I mean about a foot and half). They are a soft ski so they would be conducive to learning and progressing on, yet will still offer a lot as you become more advanced. These are certainly not the skis you'll want for big mountain charging though. For that I'd recommend something stiffer, Moments for example.

 

 

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention is that whatever you decide to get, keep your skinny skis for the groomers. You'll be happy when the off piste conditions suck.

post #21 of 21

Hey FuzzyBunny, I've got a new idea for you: Rossi S3.   It's a twin tip and great powder ski that also does well when the snow isn't as deep.

 

At 98mm, I think the S3 would be a great second (or primary) ski for everything but high speed cruising and firm bumps for you.  Hopefully your current ski could handle those.

 

I spent the post dump day yesterday at a-basin on the S3 and really liked it in a 187 (I'm 5'11 180).  It did really well in everything: pow, crud, soft bumps, and even did OK on the crusty steep stuff.  I was really surprised how easy it was to turn in the tight trees for a 187.  The surface area from the extra length really helps in the pow and crud, but the rocker actually works making the longer ski easy to turn elsewhere. 

 

I normally ski a 177 in the Kendo or Mantra, and the 186 S3 turns easier than either of those.  It just doesn't have the super edge hold of those skis.  I had demoed the S3 in a 178 previously and thought it was just too wimpy.  The extra length with the 186 S3 made all the difference and made me a fan for softer conditions.  Again proving to me you really need to try skis in different lengths before passing judgment.


Edited by tball - 5/3/13 at 11:37am
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