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Short Mogul Run for MA

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

This seems to be the M.O for MA right now: Moguls!

 

Berkshire East, the wonderful little hill where I do most of my skiing, has great steepish terrain and great glades (for Southern New England) but tends to be a little 'bump starved' and I usually don't get to ski moguls until late March...BUT, I do have this one video with some bumps from Mount Snow last weekend (I apologize for the small view, my wife shot this with her iPhone so it has all the quality of the Zapruder film...but a happier subject).  Not a particularly long run, but it's one of the steeper pitches at that mountain and the bumps where big with substantial troughs so I think this will serve as a decent run for MA.

 

I've really enjoyed watching the CSIA Lvl 4 type videos that have been up a lot lately around hear (Rolland's demos-with Norman Kreutz-who's awesome to watch, Tobin's Section 8 stuff, etc).  I love the blend of energy, athleticism but also 'real world' functionality of this sort of skiing (everywhere, but especially the mogul stuff).  I hope to work my way up to some semblance of that level over the next three years...

 

 

 

 

 

The web address: https://vimeo.com/64313674 if you want to fullscreen the video.

 

Oh, after the intro bump run is a few short vignettes of me skiing with my little guy, and some of his crew and another Patrol dad...no MA for the kids, please!  The second seen is first my boy and then me on a nice, steep, soft snow covered groomer (Feel free to MA my skiing on this as well) and lastly just a bunch of Kids and two dads skiing the end of a great little 'family' glade at Berkshire East. This was Great season...I'm not sure I'm really ready to call it quits...

post #2 of 15

Good functional skiing--you can make it through any bump run with technique like that. You've already got a lot of counter-rotation, good pivoting and pretty good pressure control. Some things you could do to improve your skiing:

  • Start using your edges from fall line to the lower third of each turn. Try hopping onto your new edges to get a feel. 
  • Maintain some speed into the next turn by staying a bit more extended at the end of each turn--resist the crumpling forces the same way you would on a groomer. 
  • Ski down whatever's in front of you rather than shopping for turns. 

     
post #3 of 15

My 2/c, this is how I would proceed with you:

 

  • Find a centered and mobile position on the ski, currently your joints are bent disproportionately, I would add more bend in the knee joint (the bum will feel like it drops back) and then add some bend in the hip joint as well so that the collar bone is over the knee.
  • Create separation through turning of the leg inside the hip socket, currently the hip is turning, causing a dump of the hip inside and weaker position. Exercises: Hockey Stops, Braquage, spies with steering, while trying to maintain the afformention Centered position, and turning the legs independently of the hip.
  • With a strong separated position, the hip can then move inside the arc to provide you with grip (angualtion)
  • This will allow you to steer (edge) the ski through the end of the turn and allow the BOS (skis) to come underneath the COM (body) and you will find a natural toppling effect. 
     

 

Hope this makes sense, good luck

 

post #4 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Good functional skiing--you can make it through any bump run with technique like that. You've already got a lot of counter-rotation, good pivoting and pretty good pressure control. Some things you could do to improve your skiing:

  • Start using your edges from fall line to the lower third of each turn. Try hopping onto your new edges to get a feel. 
  • Maintain some speed into the next turn by staying a bit more extended at the end of each turn--resist the crumpling forces the same way you would on a groomer. 
  • Ski down whatever's in front of you rather than shopping for turns. 

     

Thanks for taking the time to put together a reply, Metaphor...I have a few questions on the advice:

 

1. I'm not sure I understand about the connection between using my edges from the fall line to the bottom of a turn and hopping onto my edges?  Do you mean work on a hopping edge change at the end of the turn (changes edges without/ before changing direction) or to pivot hop the top third of the turn and engage the the edges strongly from the fall line down.  Sort of practicing going from zero-(in terms of edging) to hero?    I just want to get a handle on what you are advising.

 

Thanks again for the reply...you are correct about the ski what's in front of you vs. shopping, too-But that's my goal.

post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo87 View Post

My 2/c, this is how I would proceed with you:

 

  • Find a centered and mobile position on the ski, currently your joints are bent disproportionately, I would add more bend in the knee joint (the bum will feel like it drops back) and then add some bend in the hip joint as well so that the collar bone is over the knee.
  • Create separation through turning of the leg inside the hip socket, currently the hip is turning, causing a dump of the hip inside and weaker position. Exercises: Hockey Stops, Braquage, spies with steering, while trying to maintain the afformention Centered position, and turning the legs independently of the hip.
  • With a strong separated position, the hip can then move inside the arc to provide you with grip (angualtion)
  • This will allow you to steer (edge) the ski through the end of the turn and allow the BOS (skis) to come underneath the COM (body) and you will find a natural toppling effect. 
     

 

Hope this makes sense, good luck

 

Rollo, thanks for replying--as I said I like your bump skiing and that of the high end demonstrators in the CSIA system.  For clarification:

1.  I should be more bent in my knees and in the hips as my basic stance position through out the whole turn than I am presently-getting my collar bone more forward in relation to my knees?

 

2.  A question on the drills:  Speiss is the short rebound hops??  I think I've seen a Section 8 video on this... and what is Braquage?  But I get what you are saying: my pelvis and my femurs are moving too much in concert and they need more separation at the hip joint...all too true.

 

Thanks again for the reply...and thanks for posting up your training/ evaluation videos-they're great to watch and fairly instructive on high level skiing.

post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post

Rollo, thanks for replying--as I said I like your bump skiing and that of the high end demonstrators in the CSIA system.  For clarification:

1.  I should be more bent in my knees and in the hips as my basic stance position through out the whole turn than I am presently-getting my collar bone more forward in relation to my knees?

 

2.  A question on the drills:  Speiss is the short rebound hops??  I think I've seen a Section 8 video on this... and what is Braquage?  But I get what you are saying: my pelvis and my femurs are moving too much in concert and they need more separation at the hip joint...all too true.

 

Thanks again for the reply...and thanks for posting up your training/ evaluation videos-they're great to watch and fairly instructive on high level skiing.

1) Presently the bend in the knee is fairly limited, and when it does bend the hip does not go with it, leaving the back upright and for want of a better word 'backseat'. So look for the end of the turn, to feel heel pressure, while allowing the shoulder/collar bone to remain over the knee. 

2) Speiss with steering is where you will steer strongly though the end of the turn, creating a coiling or torquing effect between upper and lower body, then by hopping a small amount the skis should naturally unwind due to the coil you have created through sting steering and keeping the upper body stable (separation).

This video shows both braquage, and hockey stops. Take note in the hockey stops of where the shoulders are placed, and how the lower joints of the body and bent functionality for the terrain and desired outcome. Look as well at how the separation between lower and upper body is created, the legs turn inside the hip socket, to turn the ski, not with the hip coming around. Also the body stays still, rather than being 'countered' which is essentially creating a false picture of separation by turning the upper body to face down the hill. In the CSIA we look for good separation, through leg turning, and want to move away from a manufactured or false position of separation through counter rotation. 



post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post

Thanks for taking the time to put together a reply, Metaphor...I have a few questions on the advice:

 

1. I'm not sure I understand about the connection between using my edges from the fall line to the bottom of a turn and hopping onto my edges?  Do you mean work on a hopping edge change at the end of the turn (changes edges without/ before changing direction) or to pivot hop the top third of the turn and engage the the edges strongly from the fall line down.  Sort of practicing going from zero-(in terms of edging) to hero?    I just want to get a handle on what you are advising.

 

The goal of hopping onto an edge is to force you to use your edges. If you're hopping onto an edge, you're going to use it! This exercise is a more advanced version of plain old hop turns in bumps. As you're starting your new turn and start to release your old edges, hop onto your new edges. Since your body's moving downhill still, you'll end up on the edges with skis pointed down the fall line. Then keep rolling on edge through the end of the turn. The mental cue for you is "hop onto edges". 

 

The exercise is also useful for people having trouble with extension or balance. In your case it's just to get the edges engaged. 

post #8 of 15

Oops, the editor ate my edits - I probably took too long to submit. Anyway, my edits were to say that standing on an edge in and of itself doesn't make one ski better--the goal is to get you engaging the edge at the end of the turn so you maintain momentum and topple into your next turn. 

 

The other thing I wanted to mention is that it looks like rollo's trying to get you to accomplish the same outcome (creating strength&flow) by creating separation. rollo's eye is better than mine since he can distinguish separation from counter-rotation. Try both sets of development out and see what sticks. 

post #9 of 15

Liam have you read Blake's excellent description of absorption?

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/112838/a-thing-i-wrote-on-mogul-absorption#post_1472270

post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 
Many times, NEC
I've been a Blake Saunders fan since he started posting up his long videos a few seasons ago. What aspect of absorption (and what learning drills etc) do you recommend?
post #11 of 15

I was going to pretty much leave this to rollo87 since you say that his is the style that you're after, but here are a couple thoughts in reference to absorption...

 

I notice in you're video that your head bobs when you hit a couple of the last moguls.  That is definitely a symptom of lacking absorption (you've already read my article I see)... but in addition I thought I would point out that there are basically two ways of keeping your head from bobbing... one is to absorb 100% smoothly and the other is to have your spine straight and stacked.  You could think of this position as like a 'brace yourself' position.  Perfect absorption is not always possible, so it's helpful to ski in a position that will still enable you to have a quiet upper body when your absorption fails you.  Your chest should be out rather than collapsed and your kneck shouldn't point in front of your body too much.  It's like sitting in a chair with your upper body not leaning forward, but rather straight up or something and kind of out of the way.  If you're in the right position it should be possible to hit every bump hard without bouncing your upper body out of position. 

 

You definitely need to force yourself to get your knees bent on top of the bumps.  A lot of people know what to do but aren't willing to get low... those people have to kind of make themselves do it.  One good drill, since you asked about drills, would be to find some wicked steep bump, like the kind of jump that you might find between trees or something and practice going over it with more and more speed while maintaining balance and ski to snow contact... or you can traverse some bumps doing the same thing.   

post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 

Blake, that's all sound advice (and thanks for chiming in!).  I definitely get jacked around a little due to inefficient absorption/ Extension.  

 

However, am I reading it right that the functional position you advocate is different from what wa spreviously recommended and is that a function of the difference between WC technique and Recreational Technique?  Or, are you all on the same page and I'm getting lost in differing terminology?  Is stacked (ala Chuck Martin) different or similar to the bump position of CSIA (or any other non-wc zipperline high level) bumper?

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
What aspect of absorption (and what learning drills etc) do you recommend?

 

You do not show much A&E in the video. Blake gave you some good stuff. Here is some more from another posts I wrote that might help.

 

 

Find a green or blue slope with moguls to work on absorption & extension skills which are critical for mogul skiing. About 50% of speed control in moguls comes from absorption & extension.
 
Drill 1 - traverse across the moguls absorbing them by bending your knees when the ski tips touch a mogul. Progressively bend the legs so you reach maximum knee flexion at the top of the mogul. During the absorption you use strong foot containment by pulling your heels up towards your rear. This will point the ski tips down the back of the mogul. Next step is driving your feet down the backside of the mogul and into the trough by extending your legs so they are very long like standing straight up. Try to keep the skis on the snow as you traverse across the run. 
 
Drill 2 - The bottom of a mogul run can be a good place to practice fall line absorption & extension if you have a flat run out. Start with one or two mogulss. If you can absorb one or two moguls add another on the next pass. Keep doing this until you can handle 4 or 5 at a time. This is a good drill for increasing the speed of absorption & extension and foot containment.
 
After you have absorption & extension working start skiing 2 to 3 moguls at a time. You start the new turn when you hit the front of the next bump. By the top of the bump your skis are pointed directly down the fall line and then you finish the turn on the backside of the bump. This turn timing is a well kept secret within mogul coaching. If you wait to start the turn until you are on the top of the bump you will be too late. When you can ski 3 moguls in control, double it, and double it again, and again always focused on staying in complete control. If your short turns aren't fast enough go back to the groomed and practice to make them faster. If your absorption & extension isn't working go back to traversing moguls until you can smoothly traverse the run. 
 
Tip 1 - Concentrate on absorbing the moguls with your legs instead of your upper body by keeping a straighter back and using full retraction and extension of the legs. 
 
Tip 2 - Don't let the moguls dictate your turn rhythm. Turn when you need to in order to maintain speed control. That might mean making two turns on a large mogul or throwing in an extra turn between moguls.
 
Tip 3 - Look 2 to 3 moguls ahead and let your peripheral vision take care of the mogul right in front of you.
 
Tip 4 - Learn to jump over deep rutted troughs and misshaped mogul faces. When skiing a tighter line there are times when jumping over an obstacle will save the run.
post #14 of 15
Liam:

However, am I reading it right that the functional position you advocate is different from what wa spreviously recommended and is that a function of the difference between WC technique and Recreational Technique?  Or, are you all on the same page and I'm getting lost in differing terminology?

 

Some of what I said may not be really relevant depending on how much absorbing you're planning on doing... but if you're not planning on getting into deep absorption, the part where I talk about 'bracing yourself' might still apply.  When you mention the position that was previously recommended I assume that you mean where rollo is talking about the knee and hip and collar bone and stuff... the position I'm talking about might have the collar bone back a little farther than the position that rollo is talking about.  I'm kind of guessing though, it's a little hard to tell exactly where we are talking about LOL.  I am basically saying 'don't hunch'.  My collar bone may be a tiny bit farther back from the knee, but it's only my starting point (before absorbing) that I am referring to.  When I drop down absorbing my collar bone would have to move forward so I don't get back seat.  In relation to the knee though, I think it would still be behind it, because as my collar bone would move forward, my knee would move forward since my femur would be pointed straight out.  I don't know if we need an illustration really, but here are some examples where you can see where I like my collar bone to be in relation to my knee.  This is from the second shot in our video http://youtu.be/Gc9x1uFlt5s  This couple of turns in the pulled frames to me is ideal, after that point in the shot I may not have been exactly in my usual form, because after the point that I pulled the pictures from, the moguls got really outrageously big.  The biggest in the whole video for sure.  In all three of these positions (tall, medium and low) I think that my collar bone looks to be behing my knee. 

 

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I'm not completely sure if the Chuck Martin stacked position is different than the csia.  If it helps rollo or someone to answer that question, here is Chuck's description of the stacked position:  http://youtu.be/gWSJtHNVxEI

post #15 of 15

I'm retracting my assessment and recommendations--I was having a bad day and saw it all wrong. Please disregard. 

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